The Red Line: Part Deux

This country is so war weary. The Middle East is a messed up place that operates nothing like the western world. Most of the countries over there dislike the US for a variety of reasons. Why even bother?

Our foreign policy should be let them kill each other off and fight with each other. At some point, one must accept the atrocities that happen over there as part of their culture.
 
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I would. its an uphill battle at best

From what I have read today this could turn out to be a very unusual vote with members of the far right and far left both voting no, with the leadership from both sides and the non extreme members voting yes.
 
Odd. You would think they would want to hear the facts and listen to both sides before announcing their vote.

Unless, that is, their vote is purely partisan.

What facts haven't they heard?

Any different than those who've already said they'll vote Yes?
 
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From the final draft of the 2013 National Security Strategy(http://www.utexas.edu/lbj/sites/def...al Security Strategy 2013 (Final Draft).pdf):

Use of Force Doctrine
The United States maintains the right to use force when necessary. However, the
legitimacy of our use of force is fulfilled when the international community
clearly understands the conditions under which force may be used. The number
of allies willing to contribute to our military action will decrease our economic
and military costs while increasing the legitimacy of action. The Weinberger
doctrine and the subsequent Powell doctrine guided national decisions to use
force for the last two generations. Properly used, the doctrine will guide our
national decision to take military action only in situations where the advantages,
path to victory, and end goals are clear and achievable. While maintaining our
commitment to international law and the United Nations Charter, the United
States may use force in the event that the Executive Branch answers each of the
following questions in the affirmative:
• Is a vital national security interest threatened?
• Do we have a clear attainable objective?
• Have the military, economic, and social risks and costs at home and
abroad been fully and frankly analyzed?

• Does the cost of not acting exceed the cost of acting, even in the event
that action does not follow a best or good-case scenario outcome?

• Have all other non-violent policy means been fully exhausted?
• Is there a plausible exit strategy at each stage of action to avoid endless
entanglement?
• Have the consequences of our action been fully considered?
• Does the American public support the action?
• Do we have genuine broad international support that can reasonably be
expected to last throughout the entire course of engagement?

Although the doctrine implies an unwarranted restriction on the use of force, it
does so only to mitigate the unintended consequences that wars always have.
The United States will pursue our policies within the international system with
diplomacy, persuasion, and cooperation before resorting to force as a principle.

Before we strike Syria, I would remind the administration and the POTUS of these factors and determine if we meet any of them. I highlighted the ones I don't believe we meet at this point. Consequently, in my opinion, we need to find a different approach.
 
Odd. You would think they would want to hear the facts and listen to both sides before announcing their vote.

Unless, that is, their vote is purely partisan.

Your boy hasnt sold it too well if you havent noticed.

Im sure you have heard the term "reasonable doubt"
 
What facts haven't they heard?

Any different than those who've already said they'll vote Yes?


If they are out of town on the recess I would think that they have not been shown the intelligence and the proof we have that it was the Syrian government behind the attack. Nor would they be aware of what the facts are as to potential for it to occur again, both of which are key parts to the puzzle.
 
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the argument I keep hearing is that using chemical weapons violates an international "norm" (notice the word law is not used) and somehow that represents a significant national security threat even though no one is threatening to use them against us.

I understand the need for the international community to respond in some way but it sure seems like very weak sauce to claim Syria's use of chemical weapons represents a major national security threat to us.
 
The international community should respond by pulling up a bunch of navy transports and airforce passenger jets and evacuating all the old men, women and children out of the country. Then we should let them fight it out and tell us who won.
 
If they are out of town on the recess I would think that they have not been shown the intelligence and the proof we have that it was the Syrian government behind the attack. Nor would they be aware of what the facts are as to potential for it to occur again, both of which are key parts to the puzzle.

I really don't think Congress has much doubt about the use of chemical weapons. I think the doubt is in the following areas:

1. Why is it our job to retaliate
2. What does a limited "message" strike accomplish
3. Is it even reasonable to speak of a limited strike with no follow on engagement
4. Where has been any kind of strategy on Syria from which to nest this particular tactical strike.

Any of those is sufficient reason to be against and it's not just Republicans who've already made up their minds.
 
The international community should respond by pulling up a bunch of navy transports and airforce passenger jets and evacuating all the old men, women and children out of the country. Then we should let them fight it out and tell us who won.

Given we've been told this is an "international norm" violation then action should be international. I like the evacuation idea along with the international community helping the countries overwhelmed by refugees.

The only real case for us striking I've seen is that we have to because we said we would and if we don't then we are weakened. That's one of the things that got us into Iraq. Here's the real story, if we strike we are weakened as well. Either way, the next POTUS will have the job of cleaning up after whatever we do or don't do.
 
the argument I keep hearing is that using chemical weapons violates an international "norm" (notice the word law is not used) and somehow that represents a significant national security threat even though no one is threatening to use them against us.

I understand the need for the international community to respond in some way but it sure seems like very weak sauce to claim Syria's use of chemical weapons represents a major national security threat to us.

There has to be something classified that we have not heard, or I would hope so, with major players from both parties that have been briefed in favor of an attack.

From everything I have read that has been released to the public, a strike would be a lose-lose situation for the USA.
 
There has to be something classified that we have not heard, or I would hope so, with major players from both parties that have been briefed in favor of an attack.

From everything I have read that has been released to the public, a strike would be a lose-lose situation for the USA.

If you listen to dolts like Graham - it's all about saving face and sending a message to Iran, etc.

I've got news - the message has already been sent and has been being sent for quite some time. Iran won't be detered by a smackdown on Assad.

I think Senators in particular are all about action and saving "US face" regardless of facts and consequences. The story is not at all compelling and if it were then we should be leading the International community rather than ignoring it. York has a good idea - provide aid to the victims and let the idiots fight it out. Weakening Assad may just prolong the suffering.
 
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Given we've been told this is an "international norm" violation then action should be international. I like the evacuation idea along with the international community helping the countries overwhelmed by refugees.

The only real case for us striking I've seen is that we have to because we said we would and if we don't then we are weakened. That's one of the things that got us into Iraq. Here's the real story, if we strike we are weakened as well. Either way, the next POTUS will have the job of cleaning up after whatever we do or don't do.

Right. Part of the overall problem with our modern National Security Strategy is the inability of the current and last couple of Presidents to keep their mouths closed. Bush's "Mission Accomplished" and Obama's "Red Lines" are all fruits from the same tree. That tree is this overwhelming need to have the POTUS speaking directly about everything, every day. There was a time when a cabinet official or a deputy might opine about what might happen in certain situations. But, the President himself wouldn't commit one way or the other. This gave the Admin some flexibility to decide what to do based on the facts of the situation. When you have the man himself put forth an ultimatum, now you've turned his personal embarrassment into a national security issue. We need to learn as a nation that our President needs to do more photo ops and less policy pronouncements. He should save his words for the State of the Union and not much else.
 
If you listen to dolts like Graham - it's all about saving face and sending a message to Iran, etc.

I've got news - the message has already been sent and has been being sent for quite some time. Iran won't be detered by a smackdown on Assad.

I think Senators in particular are all about action and saving "US face" regardless of facts and consequences. The story is not at all compelling and if it were then we should be leading the International community rather than ignoring it. York has a good idea - provide aid to the victims and let the idiots fight it out. Weakening Assad may just prolong the suffering.


We would have to be extremely careful in providing aid. We have no friends on either side. It would be easy for US aid to fall into the wrong hands. It is a sad situation, I feel sorry for the innocent people. I think aid should be done by ME countries
 
Right. Part of the overall problem with our modern National Security Strategy is the inability of the current and last couple of Presidents to keep their mouths closed. Bush's "Mission Accomplished" and Obama's "Red Lines" are all fruits from the same tree. That tree is this overwhelming need to have the POTUS speaking directly about everything, every day. There was a time when a cabinet official or a deputy might opine about what might happen in certain situations. But, the President himself wouldn't commit one way or the other. This gave the Admin some flexibility to decide what to do based on the facts of the situation. When you have the man himself put forth an ultimatum, now you've turned his personal embarrassment into a national security issue. We need to learn as a nation that our President needs to do more photo ops and less policy pronouncements. He should save his words for the State of the Union and not much else.

Amen to highlighted in particular.
 
We would have to be extremely careful in providing aid. We have no friends on either side. It would be easy for US aid to fall into the wrong hands. It is a sad situation, I feel sorry for the innocent people. I think aid should be done by ME countries

Agreed but perhaps logisitcal help to places like Jordan or even Northern Iraq where we may still have some pull.

Overall, we should be trying build coalitions of support for the victims. I'm sure 1 Tomahawk = a lot of food and water.
 
What I want to know is how Senators McCain and Graham became such experts in Syrian rebel groups. They should be helping out the CIA in their free time.
 
I really don't think Congress has much doubt about the use of chemical weapons. I think the doubt is in the following areas:

1. Why is it our job to retaliate
2. What does a limited "message" strike accomplish
3. Is it even reasonable to speak of a limited strike with no follow on engagement
4. Where has been any kind of strategy on Syria from which to nest this particular tactical strike.

Any of those is sufficient reason to be against and it's not just Republicans who've already made up their minds.



These are the kinds of things that they would be briefed on and discuss with the administration and the military.....

If they bothered to pay any attention.

I just think that there are certain members who are going to vote no just because its Obama who has proposed it.
 
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What I want to know is how Senators McCain and Graham became such experts in Syrian rebel groups. They should be helping out the CIA in their free time.

I like to nut punch both of them.


Has it occurred to you that maybe they support it because they've been briefed on the situation, know more than you do, and think it is the correct action?
 
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