The Thread Where People Argue About Kneeling in the NFL (merged)

#2,876
#2,876
NashVol11 said:
Most people here think the cause isn't worth promoting and/or isn't real.

Saying, "you can protest, but only within parameters carefully defined not to upset me" is not "assistance." Some people understand the problems with that line of thinking and some don't, but Trump and Goodell would be much better off listening and asking questions than trying to control the method of expression.
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It's not "parameters carefully designed not to upset me" - it's one specific situation.

It doesn't matter if most people here don't think the cause is worth promoting or isn't real (though I disagree that it's most). That's different from having a beef with the very specific act that is the subject of this thread.

Bottomline, the specific act (not the cause or the people) bothers some enough for them to exercise their right to say so and/or boycott a public business. The business owners are responding. Happens all the time.
 
#2,877
#2,877
Said differently, forcing players to act patriotic is only going to make them, and many others, feel even less patriotic. Caving to people wanting to control a minority group is a good way to put a lot more people on that group's side
 
#2,878
#2,878
NashVol11 said:
Most people here think the cause isn't worth promoting and/or isn't real.

Saying, "you can protest, but only within parameters carefully defined not to upset me" is not "assistance." Some people understand the problems with that line of thinking and some don't, but Trump and Goodell would be much better off listening and asking questions than trying to control the method of expression.
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Well let's have that discussion.... what would you do to fix the issues that they perceive?
 
#2,879
#2,879
NashVol11 said:
Said differently, forcing players to act patriotic is only going to make them, and many others, feel even less patriotic. Caving to people wanting to control a minority group is a good way to put a lot more people on that group's side
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Well, I think that is part of the reason why the NFL and the players are forever damaged goods - nobody believes them now. Standing now just makes them look like self-serving cowards -- nobody is fooled. I would not be surprised that a good portion of these people don't come back.

This is more about taxpayer funding and the anti-trust exemption - whether the NFL/players will be or are damaged is already a given, just a matter of how much.
 
#2,880
#2,880
volinbham said:
It's not "parameters carefully designed not to upset me" - it's one specific situation.

It doesn't matter if most people here don't think the cause is worth promoting or isn't real (though I disagree that it's most). That's different from having a beef with the very specific act that is the subject of this thread.

Bottomline, the specific act (not the cause or the people) bothers some enough for them to exercise their right to say so and/or boycott a public business. The business owners are responding. Happens all the time.
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It's every situation. Don't tweet about it, don't go in the streets and chant about it, don't talk about it at the ESPYs, don't talk about it on ESPN. Nearly every time black people protest, it's "I support your cause, but this is the wrong way to do it." Some have realized that that's not really support, and some haven't.

The business owners are free to respond. They're going to end up looking really bad for creating a rule just to stop this.
 
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#2,881
#2,881
NashVol11 said:
The business owners are free to respond. They're going to end up looking really bad for creating a rule just to stop this.
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Not really, some stupid guy on ESPN will say so but that doesn't mean anything. Again, what you are saying is if some dude throws up a Nazi salute or wears a KKK shirt during an interview that would be acceptable as well. The players are very lucky the NFL didn't come down on them like the NBA did on Chris Jackson.

Best case scenario - lost revenue, lost sponsors, lost long-time viewers.

Worse case scenario - repeal of the anti-trust exemption, less or no tax breaks, and no public funds
 
#2,883
#2,883
n_huffhines said:
Lots of people. My old man proudly declared yesterday, "It's over. Trump won."

Unfortunately for a lot of people on both sides, this was about Trump vs the NFL.
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It became Trump vs. the NFL, and the protests effectively became a protest of Trump speaking out against the protest, the instant Trump weighed in. It was a great political move for him to do so.
 
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#2,884
#2,884
05_never_again said:
It became Trump vs. the NFL, and the protests effectively became a protest of Trump speaking out against the protest, the instant Trump weighed in. It was a great political move for him to do so.
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Yeah, cause he needs a distraction from all his embarrassing failures and so did his fanboys, so they are eating this **** up. Congrats to him and them, I guess. America still isn't great again, but at least NFL players are standing up for 3 more minutes per week. #winning
 
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#2,885
#2,885
NashVol11 said:
Said differently, forcing players to act patriotic is only going to make them, and many others, feel even less patriotic. Caving to people wanting to control a minority group is a good way to put a lot more people on that group's side
Click to expand...

Perhaps to the first point. The same could be true about any of our forced behavior rules and laws. California can now put you in jail for up to a year if you are a health care worker and use the wrong gender pronoun. You think that is going to make some of them on board? Faculty members punish students for perceived micro aggressions - you think that is going to make some of those student by in or perhaps will it make them more cynical.

Just as the protests cause reflections so too will the response. I bet some who joined in my begin to question the link between their cause and the greater concept of the USA and might even become more patriotic while still supporting their cause.

I disagree with your assessment that people objecting want to control a minority group. I'm betting the vast majority simply find it offensive to do what they perceive as disrespecting the flag and they don't care what group the protestor comes from - it's the action that is objectionable.
 
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#2,887
#2,887
n_huffhines said:
Yeah, cause he needs a distraction from all his embarrassing failures and so did his fanboys, so they are eating this **** up. Congrats to him and them, I guess. America still isn't great again, but at least NFL players are standing up for 3 more minutes per week. #winning
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Stupid players kneel, sit, use racist gestures, hide in the toilet, etc, but at least they solved every problem they were shooting for. #winning

Your type of comments are the type that are generally being rejected. imo
 
#2,888
#2,888
n_huffhines said:
Yeah, cause he needs a distraction from all his embarrassing failures and so did his fanboys, so they are eating this **** up. Congrats to him and them, I guess. America still isn't great again, but at least NFL players are standing up for 3 more minutes per week. #winning
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As a fierce free market defender how do you balance you're clear distain for the NFL's reaction to the market with your staunch defense of following the demands of the free market?

Just curious.
 
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#2,889
#2,889
n_huffhines said:
Yeah, cause he needs a distraction from all his embarrassing failures and so did his fanboys, so they are eating this **** up. Congrats to him and them, I guess. America still isn't great again, but at least NFL players are standing up for 3 more minutes per week. #winning
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All politicians do this. It is key to the job. Trump is unprecedented in some ways but is an ordinary, run-of-the-mill politician in others. This is one of them. Never turn down an opportunity to throw red meat to your base.

Trump weighed in on the anthem protests for the same reason Obama weighed in on the Henry Louis Gates arrest.
 
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#2,890
#2,890
volinbham said:
Perhaps to the first point. The same could be true about any of our forced behavior rules and laws. California can now put you in jail for up to a year if you are a health care worker and use the wrong gender pronoun. You think that is going to make some of them on board? Faculty members punish students for perceived micro aggressions - you think that is going to make some of those student by in or perhaps will it make them more cynical.

Just as the protests cause reflections so too will the response. I bet some who joined in my begin to question the link between their cause and the greater concept of the USA and might even become more patriotic while still supporting their cause.

I disagree with your assessment that people objecting want to control a minority group. I'm betting the vast majority simply find it offensive to do what they perceive as disrespecting the flag and they don't care what group the protestor comes from - it's the action that is objectionable.
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Basically, they are mad because other people are using free speech, and free will, to boycott. The irony.

I don't think you can help these people - they are so messed up in the head that nobody can help them.
 
#2,891
#2,891
volinbham said:
As a fierce free market defender how do you balance you're clear distain for the NFL's reaction to the market with your staunch defense of following the demands of the free market?

Just curious.
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All of this is above board and fair play. I don't have disdain for the NFL's reaction. They're just doing what they think is in their best interest. Now if half the league kneels on Sunday, this coukd turn out even worse for them.
 
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#2,892
#2,892
n_huffhines said:
All of this is above board and fair play. I don't have disdain for the NFL's reaction. They're just doing what they think is in their best interest. Now if half the league kneels on Sunday, this coukd turn out even worse for them.
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The NFL have very little choice here, just as Trump said, they are in a box. The more this goes on the more they lose, players are replaceable - government funding and the anti-trust exemption, not so much. The NFL has more or less shut it down before, they'll do it again because well, $$$.

The alternative is they have no NFL, because why can't someone show up during the game or interviews with a shirt that says, "Buy an Apple iPad because the Microsoft Surface blows!"
Then the player walks up to the mic and says, you know that official tablet of the NFL the Surface, its junk -- this iPad I have in my hand is tons better.
 
#2,893
#2,893
n_huffhines said:
All of this is above board and fair play. I don't have disdain for the NFL's reaction. They're just doing what they think is in their best interest. Now if half the league kneels on Sunday, this coukd turn out even worse for them.
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True but bad for the NFL equals bad for the players.

They make people mad enough and fans will just walk away. Fans aren't losing anything on that end. Players and the NFL are running far greater risks.
 
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#2,894
#2,894
TheDeeble said:
True but bad for the NFL equals bad for the players.

They make people mad enough and fans will just walk away. Fans aren't losing anything on that end. Players and the NFL are running far greater risks.
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The players are in a very tough position, now. For example, if you are a black Cowboy and you think the CJS is completely ****ed up and you kneeled before the anthem that 1 time and that's all the demonstration you ever planned on making...

...then what do you do now that you are told you have to stand? If I'm that guy and I never planned on kneeling again, I now find it harder not to kneel. Pride and principle are both factors at play. And standing is in your best interest, you were planning on doing it anyway, but now you feel like sell out.
 
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#2,895
#2,895
n_huffhines said:
All of this is above board and fair play. I don't have disdain for the NFL's reaction. They're just doing what they think is in their best interest. Now if half the league kneels on Sunday, this coukd turn out even worse for them.
Click to expand...

I guess I misinterpreted your position - seemed you were against them doing this.
 
#2,896
#2,896
volinbham said:
I guess I misinterpreted your position - seemed you were against them doing this.
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The NFL is just in a terrible position because the people that tend to watch are people that sleep in the American flag. This protest is a better fit for the NBA.
 
#2,897
#2,897
n_huffhines said:
The players are in a very tough position, now. For example, if you are a black Cowboy and you think the CJS is completely ****ed up and you kneeled before the anthem that 1 time and that's all the demonstration you ever planned on making...

...then what do you do now that you are told you have to stand? If I'm that guy and I never planned on kneeling again, I now find it harder not to kneel. Pride and principle are both factors at play. And standing is in your best interest, you were planning on doing it anyway, but now you feel like sell out.
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If it was me:

First I'd question why I was kneeling - if it was the CK reason that I cannot honor a flag or country that has a particular injustice then I have a couple choices:

1) if I feel standing is a violation of my conscious vis a vis the cause then I kneel and face the consequences

2) I stand knowing I don't agree and knowing what's in my heart - my standing is not a symbol of anything other than how I get my paycheck.

In either case I can take other actions to support my cause including but not limited to: a press conference expressing my views, involvement with groups supporting the same cause, donations of time/money, etc. There's a virtually unlimited # of ways I can support the cause.

If I reflect and find I still do support the country/flag but want to effect change to make it better (which is where I'm betting most players are) then standing shouldn't be a big deal and I can pursue all the same outlets for effecting change.

tldr; wouldn't be a bad position for me as a player.
 
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#2,899
#2,899
n_huffhines said:
The players are in a very tough position, now. For example, if you are a black Cowboy and you think the CJS is completely ****ed up and you kneeled before the anthem that 1 time and that's all the demonstration you ever planned on making...

...then what do you do now that you are told you have to stand? If I'm that guy and I never planned on kneeling again, I now find it harder not to kneel. Pride and principle are both factors at play. And standing is in your best interest, you were planning on doing it anyway, but now you feel like sell out.
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This was spoken about 2+ weeks ago on this forum, its common sense - the problem is they lack it.

They overplayed their political grand standing act, the problem is they have 4 high card. This was over 2+ weeks ago -- just a matter of how much is lost, whether is perception, pride, money, respect, etc.

The problem is they never had a cause and they are not willing to give up anything for the non-existent cause.
 
#2,900
#2,900
The players are going to have to ask themselves if it's worth their effort. Do they believe kneeling at the anthem will bring about some meaningful change? Or will it just drive more fans away from the NFL?

Not sure how kneeling at the anthem is going to make police act a certain way towards black people. If the purpose was to cause a discussion, well that's happened. The whole US is talking about it. What would cause them to stop kneeling?

That's what players need to be asking themselves if they want to continue. How long do they want this to go on and are they willing to accept this unanticipated strong negative reaction from the fans escalating?

The entertainment industry is great until you piss off the people that pay to watch you perform.
 
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