The Thread Where We Debate About Healthcare in America

[Rickyvol77]

Nothing if you qualify it with “regardless if you have insurance or not” because basically nobody else is obligated to see you without insurance. That’s a huge problem.

So you want to force doctors to see whomever for free? If someone without insurance wants to see any doctor then they can pay for their services, like literally any other business

 

[VolStrom]

You can cry all you want, the ACA is better than anything the GOP has offered to serve the undeserved of our country .

Interesting observation about the ACA.

 

[Rickyvol77]

As a matter of fact, the ACA would serve Americans much more effectively if the GOP didn’t do everything possible to sabotage it out of spite.

I’m willing to bet your bosses and actual doctors you work with disagree

 

[OHvol40]

So you want to force doctors to see whomever for free? If someone without insurance wants to see any doctor then they can pay for their services, like literally any other business

Withholding care based on means is immoral. That’s the point.

 

[OHvol40]

I’m willing to bet your bosses and actual doctors you work with disagree

My “bosses” who perform no discernible medical service in a medical facility... I’m sure they do. It’s scary when justifying your job becomes increasingly more difficult.

 

[0nelilreb]

We have laws on the book since the beginning of the book that was just trying something. The Constitution was just "trying something". Basically "trying something" has lead to advancements in science and technology, including healthcare.

The constitution didn’t try , it was an agreed upon document that they all signed to set up laws foundations for a government / country . The fact that they were able to do all of that and have it still be intact to this day is what you call fixing a problem . Obama and the Dems has an agenda nothing to pass crap into law and worry about how sh!tty is was later . You don’t try and fix something so large by jamming it down people’s throats . Smh .

 

[Rickyvol77]

Withholding care based on means is immoral. That’s the point.

So you see people for free then? Or are you a hypocrite?
Doctors should not have to give extended care to anyone for free. It’s slavery

 

[Rickyvol77]

My “bosses” who perform no discernible medical service in a medical facility... I’m sure they do. It’s scary when justifying your job becomes increasingly more difficult.

Lol yet you still cash those immoral paychecks don’t you?

 

[0nelilreb]

Nothing if you qualify it with “regardless if you have insurance or not” because basically nobody else is obligated to see you without insurance. That’s a huge problem.

So then the data is not really true , it’s subjective depending on how you look at it .

 

[LouderVol]

Great question. Here is an insight into why we’re where we are.
Health Care Industry Insights: Why the Use of Preventive Services Is Still Low

This is a great quote from that piece.
“With no margin, there is no mission.”

I didnt know it was the doctors job to be a responsible adult for me. Reminds me of when the doctors told me I had a Vitamin D deficiency. She just gave me a prescription. I asked why dont you just tell me to go outside more. She just shrugged and told me to follow the script. Similar when she said my cholesterol was a little high. She suggested monitoring and possible medication. I asked why not change my diet? She said it would work if I followed thru. But most dont, hence the script for both.

I tossed it and spend more time outside and changed my diet. Problem fixed. I needed the doctor to tell me there was an issue. But it wasnt something that needed a doctor to fix. Now in that same situation someone doesnt follow the scripts or make changes and that counts as a failure of the doctor why?

I didnt need a doctor to tell me 350lbs is overweight. No one should. Again I shocked my PCP about being proud that I was down to 220. She was shocked that someone could see and handle the issue without waiting for the doctor to tell them and lead by the hand.

And for what it's worth I was a size 38 at 220. I dont know my weight but I am now a size 36.

All that to say just because we have personal failings, my own included, doesnt mean healthcare should shoulder the blame.

We have worse health than Europeans. That doesnt immediately translate to we have worse healthCARE.

 

[0nelilreb]

Withholding care based on means is immoral. That’s the point.

Now we are getting to the root of the whole problem . You got away from cost and went to health care being a right or immoral to withhold basic , non emergency care because the individual should get it for free . Health care is not a right .

 

[Mick]

The constitution didn’t try , it was an agreed upon document that they all signed to set up laws foundations for a government / country . The fact that they were able to do all of that and have it still be intact to this day is what you call fixing a problem . Obama and the Dems has an agenda nothing to pass crap into law and worry about how sh!tty is was later . You don’t try and fix something so large by jamming it down people’s throats . Smh .

I stand corrected, the Constitution of the Confederacy was just "trying something".

 

[Rickyvol77]

Now we are getting to the root of the whole problem . You got away from cost and went to health care being a right or immoral to withhold basic , non emergency care because the individual should get it for free . Health care is not a right .

Once you break down his views on everything it always is an emotional argument. Always

 

[OHvol40]

So you see people for free then? Or are you a hypocrite?
Doctors should not have to give extended care to anyone for free. It’s slavery

I’m under no impression that I (or my wife) would make more under a universal care system. I also realize the benefit of reduced cost of care for my family of 4. I would prefer that doctors and healthcare workers ran the healthcare system to the benefit of patients and clinical employees. MBAs serve no purpose in this sector.

How does it go? “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore... but only if you can pay”. I think thats right.

 

[LouderVol]

Perhaps I misread? I thought you mentioned someone eating themselves leading to those issues.

I am being fairly tongue in cheek. Although you are pointing out a miss of mine. I should have said "eating themself into...." instead of just "eating themself".

The broader point is that the doctor can not force patients to eat healthier or do other healthy activities. They make medically valid recommendations that is then up to the individual to follow thru on. I dont blame the doctors for those who continue to eat fast food and sit on the couch all day.

 

[Rickyvol77]

I’m under no impression that I (or my wife) would make more under a universal care system. I also realize the benefit of reduced cost of care for my family of 4. I would prefer that doctors and healthcare workers ran the healthcare system to the benefit of patients and clinical employees. MBAs serve no purpose in this sector.

How does it go? “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore... but only if you can pay”. I think that right.

Yea and it didn’t mean pay half your income to Get substandard medical care for people who already don’t pay taxes and cost more due to their poor decision making

 

[0nelilreb]

I’m under no impression that I (or my wife) would make more under a universal care system. I also realize the benefit of reduced cost of care for my family of 4. I would prefer that doctors and healthcare workers ran the healthcare system to the benefit of patients and clinical employees. MBAs serve no purpose in this sector.

How does it go? “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore... but only if you can pay”. I think that right.

Yes that was a great poem written to raise funds for the base of the liberty statue . It doesn’t include the cost of living in the greatest country on the planet tho .

 

[OHvol40]

I didnt know it was the doctors job to be a responsible adult for me. Reminds me of when the doctors told me I had a Vitamin D deficiency. She just gave me a prescription. I asked why dont you just tell me to go outside more. She just shrugged and told me to follow the script. Similar when she said my cholesterol was a little high. She suggested monitoring and possible medication. I asked why not change my diet? She said it would work if I followed thru. But most dont, hence the script for both.

I tossed it and spend more time outside and changed my diet. Problem fixed. I needed the doctor to tell me there was an issue. But it wasnt something that needed a doctor to fix. Now in that same situation someone doesnt follow the scripts or make changes and that counts as a failure of the doctor why?

I didnt need a doctor to tell me 350lbs is overweight. No one should. Again I shocked my PCP about being proud that I was down to 220. She was shocked that someone could see and handle the issue without waiting for the doctor to tell them and lead by the hand.

And for what it's worth I was a size 38 at 220. I dont know my weight but I am now a size 36.

All that to say just because we have personal failings, my own included, doesnt mean healthcare should shoulder the blame.

We have worse health than Europeans. That doesnt immediately translate to we have worse healthCARE.

Then why are Americans unhealthy comparatively, in your opinion? Are we dumber? Do we lack willpower? Are millions of Americans just not-that-great to a person compared to Europeans?

 

[0nelilreb]

Then why are Americans unhealthy comparatively, in your opinion? Are we dumber? Do we lack willpower? Are millions of Americans just not-that-great to a person compared to Europeans?

Choices , Choices , Choices.. 24/7

 

[OHvol40]

Now we are getting to the root of the whole problem . You got away from cost and went to health care being a right or immoral to withhold basic , non emergency care because the individual should get it for free . Health care is not a right .

Most of the people who provide that care and literally the entire rest of the developed world disagree.

 

[OHvol40]

Choices , Choices , Choices.. 24/7

But you didn’t answer why.

 

[LouderVol]

As a matter of fact, the ACA would serve Americans much more effectively if the GOP didn’t do everything possible to sabotage it out of spite.

Yeah it was spite.

Not the rates doubling over 1 year, and more than tripling by year 3 vs the steady 5% increase it had been facing before.

And oh yeah people tend to dislike things if you force them to do it. Even if it's a good thing or something they already do or value. It's a really weird government flex. We know better than you how you should deal with your specific issues by making one size fits all requirements.

It's also hard to have a conversation when you are accused of bodies in the streets any time you mention a return to 2012 or pre ACA days.

 

[Rickyvol77]

Then why are Americans unhealthy comparatively, in your opinion? Are we dumber? Do we lack willpower? Are millions of Americans just not-that-great to a person compared to Europeans?

I already stated this earlier in the thread

-340 million people not 2 million
-some people live in poverty
-drug use more common
-smoking more common
-poor diet choices mostly due to we can literally have anything we want at any time
-obesity/diabetes/high blood pressure rates
-more gang violence on average
-high rates of mentally ill and people on psych meds
-high rate of MVAs due to personal cars
-more diversity which skews average rates for black/Hispanics

 

[hog88]

Withholding care based on means is immoral. That’s the point.

Not in the least. If allowing medical providers to refuse serve to those that can't pay is immoral isn't it also immoral for grocery stores to refuse food to those that can't pay? Apartment owners to refuse housing to those that can't pay?

 

[0nelilreb]

But you didn’t answer why.

But I actually did . No other place on earth has the available options we have at our disposal 24/7 hell I can have almost anything deliver to my doorstep without getting out of a chair .