This describes what has happened to college football perfectly.

[Voltopia]

I think your numbers, even at a top program, are dreaming.

The reality is that football or basketball (at schools like UConn) make the money so that they can pay for all the other sports like women's lacrosse, that nobody watches but are still part of the athletic program. If football and basketball are actually run like a business, expect MASSIVE Title IX lawsuits incoming.

Also why, in agreement with @hog88 , the NIL must stay OUTSIDE of the school, even though closely coordinated. Otherwise, there are too many complications that are undesirable for both players and administrations.

Huh, and here I thought the schools made all that money so they could sit on massive piles of cash and laugh at everyone else.

The keeping of NIL outside the schools is a stopgap, unfortunately. There's already lawsuits against some schools because of male players who have much larger NIL deals than their female counterparts. And even if those fail, how long until one gets through? The Supreme Court has made it clear that anyone who gets to them with a case against the NCAA will win it, so it's really just a ticking clock.

I think I said this earlier, but it's all just shuffling deck chairs on the Titantic with this mess. The complications are unavoidable and they are coming. Sooner or later the athletes will be made employees. It is inevitable. And when that time comes, the only right thing to do will be to sever the college athletics "businesses" from the schools, and make their own way as a indepedent sports league.

As to whether the schools will bring themselves to do that, remains to be seen. Their track record of doing what's best for the integrity of the game has been, shall we say, less than stellar at times.

 

[TheDeeble]

And when that time comes, the only right thing to do will be to sever the college athletics "businesses" from the schools, and make their own way as a indepedent sports league.

I'd guess all parties involved don't want that to happen. Definitely not the major conferences and student athletes. If it does, then money will dry up. As soon as colleges are severed, you will lost fan interest.

 

[Voltopia]

I'd guess all parties involved don't want that to happen. Definitely not the major conferences and student athletes. If it does, then money will dry up. As soon as colleges are severed, you will lost fan interest.

Perhaps, but having the schools tied to a for-profit business that has nothing to do with college would be -- in a word -- ridiculous. Why should public high educations institutions be involved in that? Why should taxpayer money, in any way, help fund it?

And even in a world where they got past those hurdles - what's the point of supporting something like that? Why should people care? The programs won't have any ties to the community anymore, nor the school, nor the alumni. Just some vestigial association to what used to be college athletics. People want it to be treated like a business. I've seen people say that folks should "put on their big boy pants" about it. Well, same to the college football "businesses." Drop the college gimmick and get on with it. No more classes, no more academics, no more redshirts, no more "senior day," just play football and get on with it.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

I'd guess all parties involved don't want that to happen. Definitely not the major conferences and student athletes. If it does, then money will dry up. As soon as colleges are severed, you will lost fan interest.

I'm not sure that's true. A lot of those Bama, Vols, Dawgs, etc fans never set foot in the colleges as students.

The younger folks are more savvy to college being a "starter league" for the pros now and many young folks know D1 athletes who played and know the school was secondary to their career as a player EVEN if they never were going to pros and graduated.

I think it's only us old folks who get the feels for "going back to campus to see the old school and root for our players." It's been a big business their whole life and seeing it as a business probably isn't that hard.

 

[Remy]

If that is the belief then take all the money across all schools and pay everyone involved the same amount. The player that sits on the bench gets the same amount as the ones that distribute the water and the Heisman award winner. And extend this across all sports - no more million dollar NIL for anyone.

Welcome to collectivism 101, otherwise hidden as socialism and communism. Sit on your donkey on the bench and collect the same as the starting RB taking 25 hits a game.

 

[TheDeeble]

Perhaps, but having the schools tied to a for-profit business that has nothing to do with college would be -- in a word -- ridiculous. Why should public high educations institutions be involved in that?

And even in a world where they got past those hurdles - what's the point of supporting something like that? Why should people care? The programs won't have any ties to the community anymore, nor the school, nor the alumni. Just some vestigial association to what used to be college athletics. People want it to be treated like a business. I've seen people say that folks should "put on their big boy pants" about it. Well, same to the college football "businesses." Drop the college gimmick and get on with it. No more classes, no more academics, no more redshirts, no more "senior day," just play football and get on with it.

Why should they be involved beyond what college sports used to be before it became the giant it is now? That's the question that isn't really asked or answered. There's a market for college sports that's been created by incredible fan support. And they are filling it. That's it. Americans love football. And for decades Americans have watched their college teams compete. And now more than ever Americans want their college teams to do well. Everything is built off those things.

Take college away from the equation and I'm pretty sure it will just end up another version of XFL or minor league sports that do not generate a fraction of the revenue. The people making money currently, and the athletes, have an interest in keeping those college ties.

 

[Voltopia]

Why should they be involved beyond what college sports used to be before it became the giant it is now? That's the question that isn't really asked or answered. There's a market for college sports that's been created by incredible fan support. And they are filling it. That's it. Americans love football. And for decades Americans have watched their college teams compete. And now more than ever Americans want their college teams to do well. Everything is built off those things.

Take college away from the equation and I'm pretty sure it will just end up another version of XFL or minor league sports that do not generate a fraction of the revenue. The people making money currently, and the athletes, have an interest in keeping those college ties.

I'm sure they would want to keep those ties, but the ties would no longer matter. They wouldn't be tied in any way, so why pretend? If they're fully and completely businesses, then the "college" has already been taken away from the equation. Who would anyone be kidding by claiming it has anything to do with the University of Tennessee, or the University of Alabama, or any other school? It wouldn't. The coaches would come and go, the players would come and go, you'd be spammed with advertising and NIL donation requests at every turn to pay for these people who come and go ... what does college have to do with any of that? It'd be silly for the schools to associate with that. And hypocritical. Nonsensical even.

Actually, even better thought. Once you make them businesses with real employees, you can even go fish in the NFL for some down on their luck pros who can't find an NFL team to sign them. Why not? That'd be a hoot. Seeing guys "step down" to play for a few years. Oooh, this started as a joke but now I can really see it happening. Mmm. It'd be comedy gold, actually. Hell, the Eagles cut Derek Barnett this year, didn't they? Great! Tennessee could go re-sign him. What fun. Watching some guys in their 30s or even early 40s huffing it around out there with the young'uns would be something to see.

 

[TheDeeble]

I'm not sure that's true. A lot of those Bama, Vols, Dawgs, etc fans never set foot in the colleges as students.

The younger folks are more savvy to college being a "starter league" for the pros now and many young folks know D1 athletes who played and know the school was secondary to their career as a player EVEN if they never were going to pros and graduated.

I think it's only us old folks who get the feels for "going back to campus to see the old school and root for our players." It's been a big business their whole life and seeing it as a business probably isn't that hard.

I think it's very true. There are decades of college support. Throw that out and you're starting from scratch. There is two dominant forms of football in the US. NFL and college. XFl, USFL, AAFL, arena, and every other startup league that comes or has gone will struggle. Tennessee Vols can get 100,000 fans to a single game. A team in XFL/USFL or whatever they call themselves now that they're merging will struggle to get that in an entire season of home games.

Tennessee fans will support their Tennessee Vols because they have, and their parents, and grandparents have for decades. Same with other SEC teams, Big 12 Teams, ACC teams, and Big 10 teams. College sports have over a 100 years of tradition. That is the key to it's revenue generating rabid fan support. Take away the university affiliation and I think the fan support and revenue get devastated. It's just another new startup league.

 

[TheDeeble]

I'm sure they would want to keep those ties, but the ties would no longer matter. If they're fully and completely businesses, then the "college" has already been taken away from the equation.

Not really. It's a fully and complete business being done by UT if anything. They still wear a Power T? Recite the maxims before every game? Students still get free admission? They still play in Neyland stadium with checkerboard end zones? They still have a Vol Walk and play Rocky top 40 times a game? Everything about college football is centered around college.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

I think it's very true. There are decades off college support. Throw that out and you're starting from scratch. There is two dominant forms of football in the US. NFL and college. XFl, USFL, AAFL, arena, and every other startup league that comes or has gone will struggle. Tennessee Vols can get 100,000 fans to a single game. A team in XFL/USFL or whatever they call themselves now that they're merging will struggle to get that in an entire season of home games.

Tennessee fans will support their Tennessee Vols because they have, and their parents, and grandparents have for decades. Take away the university affiliation and I think the fan support and revenue get devastated.

That's not something Randy Boyd wants to see and he's familiar with minor league sports.

I think the likelihood of UT and others licensing the brand and facilities so a new "not the NCAA" league has some built in fans has merit.

UT, Bama, GA, etc have MASSIVE investments in the brand and facilities that aren't easily maintained without revenue. The suggestion of turning Anderson into a place for normal students is laughable. Turning knucklehead freshmen loose in an NFL level training facility is a recipe for wasting millions of dollars worth of equipment. And what ...... play intramural level flag football in Neyland? It's not sustainable.

They'll have to find a way to either raze those facilities (God forbid they tear down Neyland) or generate revenue with them. Big cities were littered with old stadiums rotting and waiting destroying......I think Chattanooga has one close to the hospital downtown that sits unused.

It's a mess. But the schools have a big, big problem with all they've invested in making the SEC facilities like the pros.

 

[Voltopia]

Everything about college football is centered around college.

The whole point of this is that the people changing the game don't want it to be centered around college anymore. They want it to be like any other business. So be like any other business.

Let me put it to you this way. You talk about "reciting the maxims." What does a guy working a job care about some goofy maxims from a dude who coached a hundred years ago? Remember that scene from Office Space, where Lumberg makes everyone say "Is it good for the company?" That's all it would be. No one would care. (And maybe most didn't care these days as it was). But point is, all that fluff is fluff. They don't do that in the NFL, or the NBA, do they? Guys come in, do their jobs, and go home. That's what being a pro athlete is, more or less. Players change jerseys, coaches change shirts, teams change cities. It's purely business.

You can't have an atmosphere where everything is all business on the inside, but then on the outside pretend like all the old traditions would matter as much anymore. It's not a peanut MnM. God I love peanut MnMs. Anyway, it's not a peanut MnM. You can't have an atmophere where it's all "about the bag," but then expect all the old historical stuff to still be relevant. It'd just be performative, for the sake of appearances. Maybe that's all it ever was, I don't know. That's another topic, really. I like to think some of them over the years wanted to be a part of Tennessee's tradition - though I admit that is a conceit. But on some level the two worlds are irreconcilable.

Not that they won't try, and I get that. Too much money not to try. But it's not going to be the same.

 

[volfan102455]

So capitalism for TV networks, university presidents and coaches…but socialism for athletes generating all that revenue.

The primary purpose of a university is to educate students. The state supported universities are supported by the state with taxes paid by those in the state contributing to that. A university could exist and operate without ANY SPORTS program. Many do and many more still limit the number of programs. University Presidents should not be in your list.

But the others whose purpose of being is related to SPORTS, let them be paid the same way, if you feel they must be. It would then be a matter of everyone involved being where their heart is and not where the pocketbook takes them. And if that is not enough, they will move on to careers where they can make more money. It is why many who could be teachers aren't - they can make more in the private industry.

Do you think a college player should make more than their NFL counterpart? Do you think a college player as an "employee" should have special rules that protect their right for an education at said school or should they be treated like other "employees" at the University which implies they can be fired at will and lose not only their livelihood but also their chance at an education?

 

[volfan102455]

Huh, and here I thought the schools made all that money so they could sit on massive piles of cash and laugh at everyone else.

The keeping of NIL outside the schools is a stopgap, unfortunately. There's already lawsuits against some schools because of male players who have much larger NIL deals than their female counterparts. And even if those fail, how long until one gets through? The Supreme Court has made it clear that anyone who gets to them with a case against the NCAA will win it, so it's really just a ticking clock.

I think I said this earlier, but it's all just shuffling deck chairs on the Titantic with this mess. The complications are unavoidable and they are coming. Sooner or later the athletes will be made employees. It is inevitable. And when that time comes, the only right thing to do will be to sever the college athletics "businesses" from the schools, and make their own way as a indepedent sports league.

As to whether the schools will bring themselves to do that, remains to be seen. Their track record of doing what's best for the integrity of the game has been, shall we say, less than stellar at times.

I agree it is a matter of time before we see a female specific lawsuit against the NIL system labeling it as unfair. At some point it will be a money thing and many universities will just cut sports.

Those who think that it will be the same going to an independent sports league game are crazy. It would be dangerous for a university to attach itself to something that it cannot control. So no Volunteers, no Summit Blue, no Lady Vols, no Power T, etc. all that belongs to and is licensed by the University of Tennessee. I guess Neyland could then become a venue for concerts and other events. All you needs is 7 to 10 during the summer and you make up the revenue to the area that is lost from the football games.

The University can use the scholarship dollars for other students who appreciate the opportunity.

And folks if they choose to follow minor league football, can just go see their local team.

 

[GAVol]

I agree it is a matter of time before we see a female specific lawsuit against the NIL system labeling it as unfair. At some point it will be a money thing and many universities will just cut sports.

How does Title IX come into play though as long as NIL is kept separate from the institution?

 

[Lawrence Wright]

The primary purpose of a university is to educate students. The state supported universities are supported by the state with taxes paid by those in the state contributing to that. A university could exist and operate without ANY SPORTS program. Many do and many more still limit the number of programs. University Presidents should not be in your list.

But the others whose purpose of being is related to SPORTS, let them be paid the same way, if you feel they must be. It would then be a matter of everyone involved being where their heart is and not where the pocketbook takes them. And if that is not enough, they will move on to careers where they can make more money. It is why many who could be teachers aren't - they can make more in the private industry.

Do you think a college player should make more than their NFL counterpart? Do you think a college player as an "employee" should have special rules that protect their right for an education at said school or should they be treated like other "employees" at the University which implies they can be fired at will and lose not only their livelihood but also their chance at an education?

So much to unpack…

University presidents SHOULD be on the list, as they have influence on TV contracts. Who do you think ESPN and CBS negotiates those contracts with, Nick Saban and Jim Harbaugh?

Regarding compensation, I am in favor of college athletes in any sport making as much money as humanly possible off of his/her name, image and likeness. It’s called capitalism.

Your last question is based on a false premise, as student athletes are not considered employees.

And not sure if you’re aware, but scholarships are renewed annually, so it’s entirely possible for an athlete to lose a scholarship, lose their chance at an education or get “fired” as you posted.

 

[Lawrence Wright]

How does Title IX come into play though as long as NIL is kept separate from the institution?

As of now it doesn’t.

 

[TheDeeble]

The whole point of this is that the people changing the game don't want it to be centered around college anymore. They want it to be like any other business. So be like any other business.

Who's saying that??? I haven't seen anyone say they want college sports to be separated from college. They absolutely want to keep that university affiliation. They DON'T want it to be like every other business. Everyone making money wants to keep that university affiliation. All these weird rules trying to get around players being employees are specifically to keep things going as they are.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

The primary purpose of a university is to educate students. The state supported universities are supported by the state with taxes paid by those in the state contributing to that. A university could exist and operate without ANY SPORTS program. Many do and many more still limit the number of programs. University Presidents should not be in your list.

Read who the Board of Governors are for the NCAA and tell me University Presidents aren't neck deep in the sports end of the schools.

All the blunders over all the years by the NCAA have been made by a group of academics TRYING to run a sports organization. You're exactly correct that they shouldn't be involved, but that's exactly what the NCAA is: a group of schools governed by a group of school presidents primarily.

Who are the NCAA Board of Governors

Who are the NCAA Board of Governors

www.ncaa.org

 

[volfan102455]

So much to unpack…

University presidents SHOULD be on the list, as they have influence on TV contracts. Who do you think ESPN and CBS negotiates those contracts with, Nick Saban and Jim Harbaugh?

Regarding compensation, I am in favor of college athletes in any sport making as much money as humanly possible off of his/her name, image and likeness. It’s called capitalism.

Your last question is based on a false premise, as student athletes are not considered employees.

And not sure if you’re aware, but scholarships are renewed annually, so it’s entirely possible for an athlete to lose a scholarship, lose their chance at an education or get “fired” as you posted.

University presidents do much more than deal with sports.

Some believe that athletes as employees is on the way, though to be honest if the athletes really know what that means - they would not want that. The NIL would not work the same as it could be a conflict of interest with the employer. As an employee, their employer has more control over what they do outside of work because anything they do as an employee reflects on the employer.

With a capitalist approach, you have to "earn" the money and with that implies you have to pay for things and prove your worth. It is a give and take - not a take, take and take more approach even before you do anything of importance to earn it.

Edited to add - if you support capitalism, then you should have no problem with the student athletes paying for things the school is giving to them.

 

[Lawrence Wright]

University presidents do much more than deal with sports.

Some believe that athletes as employees is on the way, though to be honest if the athletes really know what that means - they would not want that. The NIL would not work the same as it could be a conflict of interest with the employer. As an employee, their employer has more control over what they do outside of work because anything they do as an employee reflects on the employer.

With a capitalist approach, you have to "earn" the money and with that implies you have to pay for things and prove your worth. It is a give and take - not a take, take and take more approach even before you do anything of importance to earn it.

Edited to add - if you support capitalism, then you should have no problem with the student athletes paying for things the school is giving to them.

Please don’t minimize the impact of university presidents on this issue. They are as much to blame as anyone. You’re being disingenuous to suggest they weren’t complicit. Turns out they’re all about capitalism too.

Regarding NIL and capitalism, these athletes are worth what someone is willing to pay them, whether you think they’ve earned it or not.

Your attempts to combine NIL and university scholarships are also noted…not at all the same thing.

 

[volfan102455]

Who's saying that??? I haven't seen anyone say they want college sports to be separated from college. They absolutely want to keep that university affiliation. They DON'T want it to be like every other business. Everyone making money wants to keep that university affiliation. All these weird rules trying to get around players being employees are specifically to keep things going as they are.

Many want to have their cake and eat it too. Remove the college atmosphere out of this - no more Volunteers, no more Dawgs, no more Gators, etc. and the money will disappear quickly.

The suit that was just filed is to obtain money for all athletes from the universities. What do you think that is? It is a pay me as an employee approach. NIL is only working for high profile sports and athletes.

The sad part is that the drive for money by the athletes could very well cut off the hands they are trying to get money from.

 

[LouderVol]

Not really. It's a fully and complete business being done by UT if anything. They still wear a Power T? Recite the maxims before every game? Students still get free admission? They still play in Neyland stadium with checkerboard end zones? They still have a Vol Walk and play Rocky top 40 times a game? Everything about college football is centered around college.

Students haven't gotten in free since at least 2008 or 09. and that's on top of the facilities fee they already paid.

outside of Football what do any of those things have to do with the University? No collegiate program's logo involves a Power T that I know of. The University's seal doesn't involve a Power T. Are a bunch of business majors reciting the Maxim's before Logistics 201? Neyland Stadium is clearly a football orientated structure, sans maybe a few skeletons under the field. Is there a Vol Walk for the professors as they go to class? How often are english or music majors learning about the song Rocky Top? Heck none of the rumored "Rocky Tops" are a part of UTK's campus.

The checkerboards (Ayres Hall) are about the only link back to the university that you mentioned.

its been a lot less about the UNIVERSITY than you want to believe for a lot longer than you want to admit. Those things are all FOOTBALL related, and stemmed out of football AT the University of Tennessee, they weren't coopted from the University.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Edited to add - if you support capitalism, then you should have no problem with the student athletes paying for things the school is giving to them.

I don't have a problem with students paying for anything but the SCHOOLS are offering the scholarships and the COLLECTIVES are offering the NIL deals.

You make it sound like the students have a gun to their head making them do this. The schools and collectives aren't being forced by anyone to participate.

Capitalism is working just fine in the SEC. SEC schools are making huge football money and they're making "market value" offers to athletes to get their services. If they aren't, the players take their services elsewhere, just like you'd probably do in their shoes.

What schools AREN'T doing is saying the students getting NIL have to forgo that scholarship. That's STILL how the market works. The value of the players to the school is: the value of the scholarship + NIL money.

Just because you disagree that it should be that high doesn't mean crap.

 

[Voltopia]

Who's saying that??? I haven't seen anyone say they want college sports to be separated from college. They absolutely want to keep that university affiliation. They DON'T want it to be like every other business. Everyone making money wants to keep that university affiliation. All these weird rules trying to get around players being employees are specifically to keep things going as they are.

Soooo ... they want to fundamentally change the sport, but ... want everyone else to treat the sport like nothing has changed? Oh, oh yeah, I'm sure they'd like to do that.

My point from the start has been that "keeping that university affiliation" for a business that has no real ties seems silly to me. In a world where players come and go as they please, coaches come and go as they please, where nothing is constant and no one is here longer than the money keeps them, I think all that rah rah college stuff rings hollow. Maybe that's the real thing of it, yeah? Maybe it always was a hustle. Really good marketing I guess. Once upon a time, I don't think it was. Ah well. Just another antiquated notion, I suppose.

 

[TheDeeble]

Students haven't gotten in free since at least 2008 or 09. and that's on top of the facilities fee they already paid.

outside of Football what do any of those things have to do with the University? No collegiate program's logo involves a Power T that I know of. The University's seal doesn't involve a Power T. Are a bunch of business majors reciting the Maxim's before Logistics 201? Neyland Stadium is clearly a football orientated structure, sans maybe a few skeletons under the field. Is there a Vol Walk for the professors as they go to class? How often are english or music majors learning about the song Rocky Top? Heck none of the rumored "Rocky Tops" are a part of UTK's campus.

The checkerboards (Ayres Hall) are about the only link back to the university that you mentioned.

its been a lot less about the UNIVERSITY than you want to believe for a lot longer than you want to admit. Those things are all FOOTBALL related, and stemmed out of football AT the University of Tennessee, they weren't coopted from the University.

It's been too long since I've been a college student so I didn't know if they still got in free to athletic events. (outside of the fees they already pay as a student)

Who owns the rights to the Power T? The university. If the sports programs are separate from the college then why does the university own all the rights?



That's besides the point though.

My point is those are all things that are associated with Tennessee and are still being done today. The other poster was trying to say college has nothing to do with it anymore. Whether it's the educational side or the athletic side is irrelevant. The football team playing is playing for the University of Tennessee and everything is associated with the university. The decades of tradition is a part of UT and everything in the game today is still UT football. It's not "athletic association affiliated with the University of Tennessee academic institution" football.

The entire college football experience is still centered around college.