This winter is killing two of the biggest scare tactic lies ever told...

#276
#276
Rasputin_Vol said:
Over 100,000 Americans Will Die of Swine Flu in the Next 12 Months [jrrl.com]
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Swine flu has killed up to 17,000 in U.S.: report | Reuters

Still haven't got your swine flu shot? There's plenty left - San Jose Mercury News

Three months ago, families hauled sleeping bags and pillows to the Santa Clara County fairgrounds and camped out for hours in lines that snaked half a mile to be among the first to be immunized against the feared H1N1 virus.

Now, medical providers and pharmacies can't seem to get rid of their stockpile of the once-coveted swine flu vaccine. And with the pandemic all but over, health officials are facing the reality that the government's frantic $3 billion rush to immunize the country is resulting in a glut of vaccine that soon may largely end up as medical waste.
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#277
#277
We can use the current snow in the southeast as an example that the climate obviously isn't warming. We can use the lack of snow and warmer temperatures at the Olympics as a warning sign of the dangers of global warming. However, that doesn't really make sense, as I think we can agree. That is comparing one winter to an average winter...which doesn't work in this argument.

Since we love cycles so much in this thread, can we all agree that these two observations could be (or likely are) caused by the same cyclical forcing on weather patterns: El Nino?

From wikipedia (I've read it elsewhere, so please don't bash the source too much, it is easier to pull from...)

In North America, El Niño creates warmer-than-average winters in the upper Midwest states and the Northwest, thus reduced snowfall than average during winter. Meanwhile, central and southern California, northwest Mexico and the southwestern U.S. become significantly wetter while the northern Gulf of Mexico states and Southeast states (including Tidewater and northeast Mexico) are wetter and cooler than average during the El Niño phase of the oscillation.
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#278
#278
I've mentioned El Nino in this thread before. People don't want to hear it.

EDIT: Actually, it could of been the other GW thread, but still.
 
#279
#279
IPorange said:
I've mentioned El Nino in this thread before. People don't want to hear it.

EDIT: Actually, it could of been the other GW thread, but still.
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Yeah, I hadn't seen it pulled out in this thread, yet we are citing effects on both sides of the 'argument' that can directly be described by El Nino...if you made the point of the connection between those two in this thread before, then I duly reference your post :)
 
#280
#280
g8terh8ter_eric said:
IP, you are obviously dug into only the science portion, which if you are, I applaud you for not getting yourself twisted in the bureaucratic BS. The problem is, even if climate change is happening, which I believe it is, it's not man-made. We can see that the Earth's temperatures have fluctuated many times before this, and CO2 wasn't even a factor. The whole "conspiracy" is trying to blame your neighbors for things that aren't even close to a contributing factor. Everything that takes place on this Earth is cyclical for the most part, and climate change is one of those things. There are a lot of scientists that have presented things poorly, and basically have told some of the public that the weather is not dynamic. Basically, telling us that the weather should be a specific way all the time, and there is no room for change and if there is change we have caused it. That's where I take issue. If it is climate change, we won't know for a long time, because as you have pointed out, you can't take a specific set of events to point one way or another. Unfortunately, the doomsday people are killing the science and the extreme people will or won't listen, and the people stuck in between are not going to have enough evidence to be shown one way or another. Until there is CONCRETE evidence one way or another, there will be no consensus, and people just need to not worry and live their daily lives. They also don't need to be forced to pay for something that can't be proven to them one way or another either. That's stealing, and you can't argue that.
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Sorry I missed this post.

I don't dispute that the Medieval warm period was not caused by CO2. In fact, no one does that I know of. That doesn't mean that CO2 can't cause warming.

It really is a matter of physics that CO2 is a greenhouse gas. It just is, just like water vapor, methane, and others because of it's properties. We have more CO2 in the atmosphere than we have had for the past several hundred thousand, if not few million, years.

I am well aware of past climate. I am well aware of various forcing on current weather and climate. This is something that overlays those things.

As far as the policy decisions surrounding GCC, I don't agree with many of them. I think I have touched on that somewhere on this board. Bad policy doesn't make something not true, though. It's very telling that at the end of each little argument about climate, in this thread and others, policy and economy comes up. That's the real reason for any resistance at all. Not the science.

Truth is, I am pretty radical on politics. I think most federal taxation is stealing. I think income tax is unconstitutional. So you aren't going to find much disagreement from me when it comes to Cap and Trade and other things. The free market can (and will if given a chance) do the heavy lifting in greening out economies and reducing emissions, as well as working towards new economies. If people are educated and have the means to make a green decision, they almost always do. But they won't have the means if we cut the legs out from under our economy.
 
#281
#281
IPorange said:
Truth is, I am pretty radical on politics. I think most federal taxation is stealing. I think income tax is unconstitutional. So you aren't going to find much disagreement from me when it comes to Cap and Trade and other things. The free market can (and will if given a chance) do the heavy lifting in greening out economies and reducing emissions, as well as working towards new economies. If people are educated and have the means to make a green decision, they almost always do. But they won't have the means if we cut the legs out from under our economy.
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You're actually a Libertarian?!?! Well, I could care less if I agree with you on the science or not. I still think it is gray, not cut and dry, black and white... but I can certainly agree with you on this type of policy. :)

I think we generally see eye to eye. :)
 
#283
#283
JohnWardForever said:
The global warming theory is still open for debate; we'll know more in July----if it gets so hot that the polar glaciers continue to melt. Colder winters are supposed to be the by-product of the melting ice caps---the melt cools the oceans and prevents the jet stream advance in North America. I saw this on the History channel about five years ago, predicting super cold temps in the South.

The swine flu scare was just that---a fear tactic to garner support for the Government Health Care bill. Thus far, it has failed---hope that continues.
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The History Channel blames everything that happens around the world on humans. Anytime an animal dies or it rains its our fault. So maybe you should find a more reliable source. There is no way anyone can convince most of the American public global warming has caused the winters to be colder, not too many people are that dumb.
 
#284
#284
rwemyss said:
You're actually a Libertarian?!?! Well, I could care less if I agree with you on the science or not. I still think it is gray, not cut and dry, black and white... but I can certainly agree with you on this type of policy. :)

I think we generally see eye to eye. :)
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I have a rare assemblage of views.
 
#285
#285
volfanjustin said:
The History Channel blames everything that happens around the world on humans. Anytime an animal dies or it rains its our fault. So maybe you should find a more reliable source. There is no way anyone can convince most of the American public global warming has caused the winters to be colder, not too many people are that dumb.
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I had a cat get ran over last week.....come to think of it, it was mans fault..or could it have been the cats for running into the road in the first place? Where is the History Channel when I need them!:)
 
#286
#286
I think we should outlaw volcanic eruptions, they can change the climate quicker and more severely than anything man could do.:)
 
#289
#289
overseasorange2 said:
I think we should outlaw volcanic eruptions, they can change the climate quicker and more severely than anything man could do.:)
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That's not entirely accurate. We already covered that in either this thread or the other one, but look up the raw numbers from the USGS and you'll see what I mean.
 
#290
#290
overseasorange2 said:
I think we should outlaw volcanic eruptions, they can change the climate quicker and more severely than anything man could do.:)
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Perhaps local climate...as in, on the mountain or in the valley below it...and climate as in "oh god, lava is getting ready to swallow me."

Otherwise, not so much. The CO2 isn't all that much, IIRC, compared to annual CO2 emissions from energy sources. As for other effects, the sulfur can be high...and that can lead to cooling (e.g., Mount Pinatubo).
 
#291
#291
IPorange said:
That's not entirely accurate. We already covered that in either this thread or the other one, but look up the raw numbers from the USGS and you'll see what I mean.
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Ba ha ha. Accuracy in this debate is perspective on which reports are released (or not released if they don't communicate the right conclusion).
 
#292
#292
hohenfelsvol said:
Ba ha ha. Accuracy in this debate is perspective on which reports are released (or not released if they don't communicate the right conclusion).
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How come no one makes these kinds of claims about other things? Like state capitals? New York City is the capital of New York! It's the oldest city, the biggest city, and the most important city. Therefore, it HAS to be the capital!
 
#293
#293
IPorange said:
How come no one makes these kinds of claims about other things? Like state capitals? New York City is the capital of New York! It's the oldest city, the biggest city, and the most important city. Therefore, it HAS to be the capital!
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Well how do you say the capital of Kentucky? Louee ville or Louis ville?
 
#298
#298
Also in Kentucky, we pronounce Athens as the letter A thens..... not apple a athens......

Never quite understood this.

 
#299
#299
So what is the prognosis of climate change and how will it affect me and the generations to come? Can it be stopped?
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