Thoughts After Reading The Letter...

#76
#76
I think that means nothing. He went back when he knew he was caught. And to the last part, I really have no idea what they would do if he gets a one-year; my hope would that they would can him. And, apparently according to Hubbs Hamilton thinks they can somehow ignore the show-cause by pretending it only applies to subsequent employers. I would think trying that crap would be about the last thing UT should try.

Have you found the text of the show cause rules? My foray into google was unsuccessful. I'd be interested to see whether that argument would hold any weight.

The ESPN article said that "some" recipients of SCO's were fired before they were handed down, but that could be one or nineteen out of twenty.
 
#77
#77
Have you found the text of the show cause rules? My foray into google was unsuccessful. I'd be interested to see whether that argument would hold any weight.

The ESPN article said that "some" recipients of SCO's were fired before they were handed down, but that could be one or nineteen out of twenty.

This is purely an opinion, but I'd say that would be a great way of pissing the 'AA off and making the punishment much worse. It seems to me like it's just making a game of the situation.
 
#78
#78
This is purely an opinion, but I'd say that would be a great way of pissing the 'AA off and making the punishment much worse. It seems to me like it's just making a game of the situation.

How could the punishment get worse for a sentence already doled out?

It does sound like an excuse for continued scrutiny after these violations are dealt with.
 
#79
#79
How could the punishment get worse for a sentence already doled out?

It does sound like an excuse for continued scrutiny after these violations are dealt with.

Maybe I'm missing something. I'm assuming that the "show-cause doesn't apply to us" argument would be used at the hearing where Tennessee gets to make its case before the punishment is handed down. If that's the case, I think that that argument would be about the worst thing one could come up with if we're trying to lessen the punishment.
 
#80
#80
If Pearl gets a one-year show cause, does he get canned by UT? Does the NCAA show-cause penalty require a coach's present employer to show cause of his continued employment?

I think those reading Hubbs's explanation are sort of reading it wrong and thinking about it wrong.

"Show cause" by itself is not a penalty, per se. The penalty would be separate....like, Pearl suspended for a year, or two, or a decade, or 3 games.

Then the show-cause would be tacked on top of that, saying that the penalty would follow Pearl should UT decide to cut ties.

For instance, the ruling might go something like this:

1. Pearl suspended for 10 games coaching at UT;
2. Some loss of recruiting time, or phone calls, or visits;
3. Loss of a scholarship for two years;
4. 2-year show cause

The show cause would mean that IF UT elects to cut ties and fire Pearl so they get a coach who can recruit and coach for a year, then for 2 years, anyone hiring Pearl would be subject to the SAME penalties UT was looking at (or else show cause why they shouldn't be).

Thus "ignoring" the show cause is not a word game...Pearl will have penalties, and UT can eat them or ditch Pearl. If the latter, then the penalties follow him for the duration of the show-cause.

All the above is my guesswork only, trying to sift through a mountain of internet data quickly. I have no inside information.
 
#81
#81
Maybe I'm missing something. I'm assuming that the "show-cause doesn't apply to us" argument would be used at the hearing where Tennessee gets to make its case before the punishment is handed down. If that's the case, I think that that argument would be about the worst thing one could come up with if we're trying to lessen the punishment.

I completely agree that the June meeting of the COI is no place for that argument. Wow, that would be comically bad.

If you are going to argue it at all, it would be best to do it in a request for an advisory opinion after it has been handed down as punishment.
 
#82
#82
I think those reading Hubbs's explanation are sort of reading it wrong and thinking about it wrong.

"Show cause" by itself is not a penalty, per se. The penalty would be separate....like, Pearl suspended for a year, or two, or a decade, or 3 games.

Then the show-cause would be tacked on top of that, saying that the penalty would follow Pearl should UT decide to cut ties.

For instance, the ruling might go something like this:

1. Pearl suspended for 10 games coaching at UT;
2. Some loss of recruiting time, or phone calls, or visits;
3. Loss of a scholarship for two years;
4. 2-year show cause

The show cause would mean that IF UT elects to cut ties and fire Pearl so they get a coach who can recruit and coach for a year, then for 2 years, anyone hiring Pearl would be subject to the SAME penalties UT was looking at (or else show cause why they shouldn't be).

Thus "ignoring" the show cause is not a word game...Pearl will have penalties, and UT can eat them or ditch Pearl. If the latter, then the penalties follow him for the duration of the show-cause.

All the above is my guesswork only, trying to sift through a mountain of internet data quickly. I have no inside information.

I think this is right. So, I'm assuming if Pearl's not fired, his suspension would be as long as the show-cause would be if he was fired. That's the only thing that makes sense.
 
#83
#83
So, I'm assuming if Pearl's not fired, his suspension would be as long as the show-cause would be if he was fired. That's the only thing that makes sense.

I don't know the rules, but if I were supreme dictator I wouldn't do it that way. I'd want the flexibility to say "you're suspended for ONE year, and if you get fired the one-year suspension follows you for anyone who hires you the next THREE years."

Or something like that.

In other words, if I were the NCAA the show-cause duration wouldn't necessarily be the same length as the suspension.

Doesn't mean they'll think that way, though.
 
#84
#84
I think this is right.

OTOH, if I'm right then this means there must have been some penalty associated with (for instance) the recently terminated UCONN assistant coach?

What's that penalty? Or is there not one...just, "if you hire this guy we will penalize you."

?

Confused now, I'm going to go read (skim, actually) the uconn letter.
 
#85
#85
I don't know the rules, but if I were supreme dictator I wouldn't do it that way. I'd want the flexibility to say "you're suspended for ONE year, and if you get fired the one-year suspension follows you for anyone who hires you the next THREE years."

Or something like that.

In other words, if I were the NCAA the show-cause duration wouldn't necessarily be the same length as the suspension.

Doesn't mean they'll think that way, though.

I was just coming at it from that both penalties are designed to do the same thing, keep the coach that broke the rules from coaching. That's why I just assumed that they would be the same.
 
#86
#86
I was just coming at it from that both penalties are designed to do the same thing, keep the coach that broke the rules from coaching. That's why I just assumed that they would be the same.

You could be right. I'm just throwing ideas around, trying to decide what makes the most sense.
 
#87
#87
I completely agree that the June meeting of the COI is no place for that argument. Wow, that would be comically bad.

If you are going to argue it at all, it would be best to do it in a request for an advisory opinion after it has been handed down as punishment.

I agree.
 
#88
#88
OTOH, if I'm right then this means there must have been some penalty associated with (for instance) the recently terminated UCONN assistant coach?

What's that penalty? Or is there not one...just, "if you hire this guy we will penalize you."

OK, I read the UCONN penalty. That coach's show-cause, in fact, DOES spell out what specific penalties go with that coach. Basically he can't make recruiting phone calls for two years (the duration of the show-cause, so LV's interpretation was right about that part), and he has to attend an annual compliance seminar. In addition, his employer has to watch him and submit reports on him for a couple years.

I now think a "show cause" order is an absolute 100% given with Pearl, and that "show cause" by itself has no particular meaning as far as severity of punishment. The question will simply be what penalties go with the order.
 
#89
#89
I was just coming at it from that both penalties are designed to do the same thing, keep the coach that broke the rules from coaching. That's why I just assumed that they would be the same.

I now think you're right after reading the UCONN thing.
 
#90
#90
OK, I read the UCONN penalty. That coach's show-cause, in fact, DOES spell out what specific penalties go with that coach. Basically he can't make recruiting phone calls for two years (the duration of the show-cause, so LV's interpretation was right about that part), and he has to attend an annual compliance seminar. In addition, his employer has to watch him and submit reports on him for a couple years.

I now think a "show cause" order is an absolute 100% given with Pearl, and that "show cause" by itself has no particular meaning as far as severity of punishment. The question will simply be what penalties go with the order.

All of the cases that I've seen where a coach has been given one the punishment extends for a number of years. So, it's reasonable to assume that's the only question left to be answered with Pearl, how many years.
 
#92
#92
All of the cases that I've seen where a coach has been given one the punishment extends for a number of years. So, it's reasonable to assume that's the only question left to be answered with Pearl, how many years.

One full year suspension, one full year show-cause. That's my best guess now.

The guy at UCONN got two, but it wasn't a suspension from coaching...just a ban from phone calls. So I don't think 2 years suspension from coaching for pearl would be comparable.

I think there is some reasonable possibility that they mix and match...like no phone calls for a full year, but only a coaching suspension for 12 games or something. But I think that's less likely.
 
#93
#93
One full year suspension, one full year show-cause. That's my best guess now.

I think he has to be fired under that scenario. And I've kind of been thinking that that's probably a conservative estimate on the punishment.
 
#94
#94
I think he has to be fired under that scenario. And I've kind of been thinking that that's probably a conservative estimate on the punishment.

Two years seems like piling on, from where I sit.

I think I agree about firing him for a one year suspension. Geez, we've already all but fallen apart this year, and we can't recruit (and it's showing), and next year we'll have no post presence whatsoever, and then the COI decision won't come until December, so the suspension would be for the FOLLOWING year, which means our recruiting would take yet ANOTHER hit.

We're talking about an utter gutting of the program.

Pearl can win with walk-ons like no-one I've ever seen, but let's not ask ourselves to defy the odds every night for the next decade, eh?
 
#95
#95
Two years seems like piling on, from where I sit.

I think I agree about firing him for a one year suspension. Geez, we've already all but fallen apart this year, and we can't recruit (and it's showing), and next year we'll have no post presence whatsoever, and then the COI decision won't come until December, so the suspension would be for the FOLLOWING year, which means our recruiting would take yet ANOTHER hit.

We're talking about an utter gutting of the program.

Pearl can win with walk-ons like no-one I've ever seen, but let's not ask ourselves to defy the odds every night for the next decade, eh?

I think the unbelievable press that the Pearl situation has received is going to cause the NCAA make an example out of him by absolutely laying the hammer to him.
 
#96
#96
I think the unbelievable press that the Pearl situation has received is going to cause the NCAA make an example out of him by absolutely laying the hammer to him.

I personally think his so called "time served" will play a big role in this. They will add a 5 game suspension at the start of next year, and he will continue to coach the vols.

If it doesn't there will be no reason for anyone to self impose in the future.
 
#97
#97
I personally think his so called "time served" will play a big role in this. They will add a 5 game suspension at the start of next year, and he will continue to coach the vols.

If it doesn't there will be no reason for anyone to self impose in the future.

I think there will still be incentive to self-impose. If Tennessee wanted to get out of this and keep Pearl, they should have suspended him for this entire year. That would grab the 'AA's eye. I don't think what we've done will.
 
#98
#98
The self imposed penalties are unique, it will be interesting to see. I tend to be more of a half full kind of guy.
 
I think the unbelievable press that the Pearl situation has received is going to cause the NCAA make an example out of him by absolutely laying the hammer to him.

Exactly. That's why we should cut our losses sooner rather than later, as it may mitigate the scope of the punishment otherwise.
 

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