Top 5 all-time QBs (SIAP)

#27
#27
Consider what Peyton is doing now, and that he missed an entire season in what has shown to be the prime of his career. Peyton also has a disadvantage of not being very athletic.

I agree with Young. It took him a long time to get going, but when he did. Of course those 49er teams were stockpiled.

Favre: TDs: 508, INTs: 336, Yards: 71,838, QBR: 86.0

Manning: TDs: 491, INTs: 219, Yards: 64,964, QBR: 97.2.

Favre has more TDs and yards and they have same number of SBs. Favre also more INTs and less QBR than Manning. Like I said that was my current rating. If Manning wins SB this year and comes back next year, I think he will go down as greatest ever.
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Consider the average in years played. Then look at the TD-INT ratio. It's not even close. Further, if you consider the year Peyton missed, while in his prime, then hisTD numbers would eclipse BFs by a wide margin. Efficiency
 
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#28
#28
crusse10 said:
Let us not forget that nobody played through injury like Brett Favre. High-risk, high-reward is what made Brett Favre the epitome of greatness. Also, nobody mentored backups like Favre. 4 future starters (3 of which became quite successful) in the NFL mentored under Favre.
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Aaron Rodgers would probably sing his praises...if Brett would have ever spoken to him :no:
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#29
#29
butchna said:
Aaron Rodgers would probably sing his praises...if Brett would have ever spoken to him :no:
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Aaron Rodgers would probably be out of the league right now if he didn't get to sit those 3 years.
 
#33
#33
volfanbill said:
I really hate that people don't understand rings are PART of the equation, not THE equation.
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The problem is, the "equation" is constantly changing its criteria and doesn't actually work like an equation does. For instance, why do folks think it's significant that Tom Brady wins more head to head match ups with Peyton Manning? Neither play defense. When Eli Manning or Joe Flacco win head to head match ups with Brady, why are they not declared the greater QB? Why are rings the trump card for Brady but not for Bradshaw or Montana? Why is it when most QBs throw for 20-something TDs in the regular season and win a Super Bowl with a great defense, they are part of a great team, but when Brady does it, he is the greatest QB of all time? Why is it that when Manning breaks the single season record for TDs and has a dominant regular season and doesn't win a championship, he's a choker, but when Brady does it, he's still considered clutch?

And how on earth can you really compare the stats of QBs from the 80s with QBs from today, when the game has changed so much?
 
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#34
#34
vols_fan_68 said:
I don't get the Favre hype, all time leader in most interceptions, although he played for about 40 years.
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Gunslingers throw interceptions, but they also throw highlights. He's 4th on the list of game-winning drives.

Also leader in TDs and yards.

Oh, and Peyton had a hall-of-famer catching passes for almost his entire career. Favre never had that. Peyton also had a killer O-Line, while Favre is the all-time leader in getting sacked.

(Favre was sacked 255 more times than Peyton. In my opinion, that shows just how incredible his streak of starts is)
 
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#35
#35
We were having this discussion at work. Assuming Peyton wins another SB, I think it will be hard not to put him at the top. Here's my list RIGHT NOW:

1. Favre
2. Unitas
3. Manning
4. Montana
5. Marino

Would be hard for me not to have Brady in my top 5 considering how great he has been overall in his career in big games.
 
#36
#36
crusse10 said:
Aaron Rodgers would probably be out of the league right now if he didn't get to sit those 3 years.
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The wait probably benefitted him because he went from low rated recruit to JC to Cal to NFL in a real short amount of time...my point and it's common knowledge, Favre had little to no interaction with his backups...especially Rodgers...any "mentoring" was accomplished by a litany of quality QB coaches on Green Bay's payroll over the years, notably John Gruden, Andy Reid and Mike McCarthy...I'm sure they get Christmas cards from Brunnell, Hasselbeck and Warner to this day :dance:
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#37
#37
oregonvol said:
The problem is, the "equation" is constantly changing its criteria and doesn't actually work like an equation does. For instance, why do folks think it's significant that Tom Brady wins more head to head match ups with Peyton Manning? Neither play defense. When Eli Manning or Joe Flacco win head to head match ups with Brady, why are they not declared the greater QB? Why are rings the trump card for Brady but not for Bradshaw or Montana? Why is it when most QBs throw for 20-something TDs in the regular season and win a Super Bowl with a great defense, they are part of a great team, but when Brady does it, he is the greatest QB of all time? Why is it that when Manning breaks the single season record for TDs and has a dominant regular season and doesn't win a championship, he's a choker, but when Brady does it, he's still considered clutch?

And how on earth can you really compare the stats of QBs from the 80s with QBs from today, when the game has changed so much?
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because you're obviously biased towards Manning? I'm not biased towards either. Manning's stats trump Brady, Brady's rings and head to head match ups trump Manning. Brady's postseason trumps Manning. Mannings regular season trumps Brady.

My equation doesn't change. I don't care for any of my top five, really my top ten picks. There's no way I can let my bias interfere. I could argue Sammy Baugh's importance to the position, but not his talent as a top 5 all time qb.
 
#38
#38
crusse10 said:
Gunslingers throw interceptions, but they also throw highlights. He's 4th on the list of game-winning drives.

Also leader in TDs and yards.

Oh, and Peyton had a hall-of-famer catching passes for almost his entire career. Favre never had that. Peyton also had a killer O-Line, while Favre is the all-time leader in getting sacked.
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How dare you! Peyton has never had talent around him. Ever. Every one on his team sucked except him, every year. He made them great. He made them invincible. Without Peyton none of those other players would have even garnered contracts!
 
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#39
#39
volfanbill said:
because you're obviously biased towards Manning? I'm not biased towards either. Manning's stats trump Brady, Brady's rings and head to head match ups trump Manning. Brady's postseason trumps Manning. Mannings regular season trumps Brady.

My equation doesn't change. I don't care for any of my top five, really my top ten picks. There's no way I can let my bias interfere. I could argue Sammy Baugh's importance to the position, but not his talent as a top 5 all time qb.
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Show me what I said that was biased. Also, please show me your objective equation.

I'm not the one applying criteria to certain QBs but not to others. That's pretty much the definition of bias. If Brady's rings trump someone then Bradshaw and Montana's rings trump his. If his head to head match ups trump someone, then his losses to Eli and Flacco when it matters trump him.

I'm not the one arguing that Manning or Brady are the greatest of all time, but I find it silly to apply criteria to them that you don't apply elsewhere. That's what we call "bias". You should look it up.
 
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#41
#41
volfanbill said:
How dare you! Peyton has never had talent around him. Ever. Every one on his team sucked except him, every year. He made them great. He made them invincible. Without Peyton none of those other players would have even garnered contracts!
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of course he had talent but he also developed less talented or very young players into solid options. I think he has the ability and trust of others to mold them into the type of WR he wants them to be. Not many QBs have that ability
 
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#42
#42
oregonvol said:
Show me what I said that was biased. Also, please show me your objective equation.
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oregonvol said:
For instance, why do folks think it's significant that Tom Brady wins more head to head match ups with Peyton Manning? Neither play defense. When Eli Manning or Joe Flacco win head to head match ups with Brady, why are they not declared the greater QB? Why are rings the trump card for Brady but not for Bradshaw or Montana? Why is it when most QBs throw for 20-something TDs in the regular season and win a Super Bowl with a great defense, they are part of a great team, but when Brady does it, he is the greatest QB of all time?

Why is it that when Manning breaks the single season record for TDs and has a dominant regular season and doesn't win a championship, he's a choker, but when Brady does it, he's still considered clutch?
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you want to be able to knock Brady for each accomplishment and sing praises for each of Manning's accomplishments, that's the bias.

Brady's ability to win Super Bowls helps make him great. Manning's ability to put up RIDICULOUS stats make him great. I didn't knock Montana at all for winning championships with good teams. He's my number one all time QB.
 
#43
#43
utvolpj said:
of course he had talent but he also developed less talented or very young players into solid options. I think he has the ability and trust of others to mold them into the type of WR he wants them to be. Not many QBs have that ability
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Kind of like some QB that plays up in Foxsborough? Who's gone through more no name receivers than I can think of and still put up great numbers year in and year out?

Both have had good players around them, but I'd argue that just on offensive weapons alone, Peyton's had better talent. Yeah, he's made them better, but so has any QB in a top ten/top five all time ranking.
 
#44
#44
volfanbill said:
you want to be able to knock Brady for each accomplishment and sing praises for each of Manning's accomplishments, that's the bias.

Brady's ability to win Super Bowls helps make him great. Manning's ability to put up RIDICULOUS stats make him great. I didn't knock Montana at all for winning championships with good teams. He's my number one all time QB.
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Where did I sing anyone's praises? I was simply poking holes in silly criteria. Does Roethlisberger's ability to win Super Bowls make him great? Bradshaw? Dilfer?
 
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#45
#45
oregonvol said:
Where did I sing anyone's praises? I was simply poking holes in silly criteria. Does Roethlisberger's ability to win Super Bowls make him great? Bradshaw? Dilfer?
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there you go again pretending like only winning Super Bowls is what matters. Do I need to point that out again?
 
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#46
#46
volfanbill said:
Kind of like some QB that plays up in Foxsborough? Who's gone through more no name receivers than I can think of and still put up great numbers year in and year out?

Both have had good players around them, but I'd argue that just on offensive weapons alone, Peyton's had better talent. Yeah, he's made them better, but so has any QB in a top ten/top five all time ranking.
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I think the receivers both have had are pretty similar. One big difference IMO is coaching. Another is where both had to start with their respective teams (Colts for PM). I don't slight Brady's accomplishments since they speak for themselves but I view a game last night as a flip in the normal Brady v Manning script. To me it spoke volumes to how the rivalry has been framed for years
 
#47
#47
volfanbill said:
there you go again pretending like only winning Super Bowls is what matters. Do I need to point that out again?
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I'm still waiting to see your equation. All you have said is that it matter for Brady. If it doesn't matter for other QBs, please show me why that is. Otherwise, I'll just conclude you're simply biased.
 
#48
#48
In my opinion, Favre did more with less. Over his entire career, he played with 1 other HOFer, Reggie. I look at Favre the way I look at early-1900s pitchers. Just because they played so many games doesn't diminish how great they were. Cy Young only won 1 World Series, but that doesn't mean that he isn't arguably the best pitcher ever.
 
#49
#49
oregonvol said:
I'm still waiting to see your equation. All you have said is that it matter for Brady. If it doesn't matter for other QBs, please show me why that is. Otherwise, I'll just conclude you're simply biased.
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Where did I ever say that? You're just reading what you want to. It's kind of sad really.

Wins, playoff record, stats, QBR, TD/INT ratio, etc all play a part. That's all I've ever said. I don't know why this is so hard for you. If Super Bowl wins only matter to Brady, why do I pick Joe Montana as my pick for best QB ever? If Super Bowl wins are all that matters, why is Terry Bradshaw not even in my top ten? Come on man.
 
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