Top 5 all-time QBs (SIAP)

[Volosaurus rex]

Within the context of this debate, what, precisely, is your point with respect to QBR? Peyton appears to hold the single-season record in that category (87.22 in 2006) and has also led the league in that stat five of the last eight years (see NFL Year-by-Year QBR Leaders - Pro-Football-Reference.com), with Brady pacing the league in 2007 and 2010, and Aaron Rodgers coming in first in 2011.

 

[BadJerry20]

It's an idiot's argument when he has been proven wrong on so many levels....and he just talked himself into a circle by using this stat--which contradicts his earlier reply to me that team success isn't a good indicator for evaluating a QB's ability....:crazy:

The funny thing to me is people will say Super Bowls are team success and don't tell a players greatness, then turn around and say if PM wins a second it will solidify him being the GOAT. And the people screaming stats stats stats were not screaming Favre as the GOAT. Understandably objectivity is lost when debating this topic, that's why I generally stay away from this conversation.

 

[RDU VOL#14]

We were having this discussion at work. Assuming Peyton wins another SB, I think it will be hard not to put him at the top. Here's my list RIGHT NOW:

1. Favre
2. Unitas
3. Manning
4. Montana
5. Marino

Also considered: Elway, Bradshaw, Brady, Moon, Tarkenton, etc.

Thoughts?

I think it's pretty awesome that John Madden is posting on VN. Not everyday that you get a Hall of Fame coach posting on the board.

 

[BadJerry20]

I think it's pretty awesome that John Madden is posting on VN. Not everyday that you get a Hall of Fame coach posting on the board.

Come on we know Madden would have Favre 1-10.

 

[RDU VOL#14]

Come on we know Madden would have Favre 1-10.

Good point. Haha

 

[MikeVol44]

Within the context of this debate, what, precisely, is your point with respect to QBR? Peyton appears to hold the single-season record in that category (87.22 in 2006) and has also led the league in that stat five of the last eight years (see NFL Year-by-Year QBR Leaders - Pro-Football-Reference.com), with Brady pacing the league in 2007 and 2010, and Aaron Rodgers coming in first in 2011.

I am sorry, sir. I got Passer rating mixed up with QBR--which stats you quote above. They only go back to 2006 I believe. The #'s I used were for PASSER RATING....

Thanks for the correction..:blush:

 

[roddo518]

1 Unitas Pioneer of the passing game. 3 championships, held every passing record for ever.
2 Elway Best with poor wrs and average defense. 5 superbowls, won 2
3.Montana Best of system qbs. 4 superbowls, won 4
4 Manning Best mind and strategist in the game. 3 superbowls, won 1 so far
5 Brady. 2nd best system qb, 5 superbowls won 3
6 Aikman. Great defense, great rushing attack. 3 and 0 in superbowls.
7 Bradshaw. Best defense in history. 4 and 0 in superbowls
8 Farve. Great longevity, . 2 superbowls, 1 win
9.Kelly. Great qb. 4 superbowls, 0 wins, did win usfl championship I think.
10 Staubach Winner. Should have won one more Super Bowl if not for dropped pass in end zone.

 

[Hacksaw]

Sorry but that is a terrible argument. Montana was replaced by a HOFer in Steve Young. Probably a top 10-15 QB of all time. Manning was replaced by Curtis Painter, Dan Orlovsky and for 3 games Kerry Collins.

Steve Young was 3–16 in 19 games as a starter, completing less than 55% of his passes and amassing 11 TDs and 21 INTs in the portion of his NFL career that was NOT played as a 49er.

Yet, when he stepped in for Montana, his performance was so impressive that it led to a QB controversy in SF that eventually saw Montana leave for KC.

 

[Hacksaw]

Your usual argument here. When talking about every other great QB it is because of the team. However when it comes to Manning, it is only about him.

So when Denver beat the Chargers, was it just Peyton? Or was it a combination of great offense and the defense playing good? Same with the Patriots game. Was it all Peyton and none of his team that won?

I'm only trying to keep us on topic. The discussion is about the greatest to ever play the QB position -- not the greatest performances by a QB in the playoffs or which QB played on the better TEAM.

So, in the interest of getting back on topic...

Peyton has AVERAGED over 4,000 yards passing per season over the course of his career. How many other QBs in the history of the NFL accomplished that feat before Peyton came along.

Bonus question: How many times in his career did Joe Montana throw for 4,000 yards or more in a season?

Hint: the answer is the same for both questions.

 

[Hacksaw]

Montana didn't have Rice for his first 2 Super Bowls. He had Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon. Roger Craig was a second year player in 1984. Peyton Manning has also had wayyy better offensive lines than just about anybody. As a matter of fact, he is the third least sacked QB of all time, first among active QB's.

Also the rules are much stricter now on the defense. Back when Montana played the defense could actually hit the QB without fear. Now a days a defensive player has a very small strikezone in which to hit with. Its a lot easier to put up monster stats and be a great QB when you know you're protected and that the defense is restricted.

Yeah, and if Dwight Clark was 2 inches shorter then Montana would have one fewer ring. We can play hypotheticals all day long. Peyton's OL was wayyy better than Joe's? I call BS. You can cite sacks, but Peyton is often credited for his own low sack total due to his understanding of the game and how quickly he gets rid of the ball. Trying to equate that to his OL being sooo much better than Montana's is a big reach.

And I'm sure the game is different in a lot of ways now than it was when Joe played. I know that the DBs sure do get away with a lot more of what would have been called PI or defensive holding back then. But the players are also bigger, stronger and quicker. Probably has something to do with why Peyton has had to overcome 4 neck surgeries.

 

[Hacksaw]

It's not a good argument when he has been proven wrong on so many levels....and he just talked himself into a circle by using this stat--which contradicts his earlier reply to me that team success isn't a good indicator for evaluating a QB's ability....:crazy:

Want to skip the actual debate and just declare victory, 'eh? I don't blame you. It's really your only hope.

But if you do want to try to point out something that I said that is factually incorrect, I'll be happy to address it.

I'm not sure I can help you understand why a TEAM going into the tank when they lose their starting QB is significant, when other TEAMs seem to soldier on in the same scenario. I would think it's pretty obvious.

 

[Hacksaw]

The funny thing to me is people will say Super Bowls are team success and don't tell a players greatness, then turn around and say if PM wins a second it will solidify him being the GOAT. And the people screaming stats stats stats were not screaming Favre as the GOAT. Understandably objectivity is lost when debating this topic, that's why I generally stay away from this conversation.

Well, that's a strawman argument as it applies to me. I have said REPEATEDLY that I don't feel Peyton has anything to prove and that he is the GOAT even if he never won a SB. The problem is all these people out there who refuse to give him his due credit and want to cite a lack of TEAM accomplishments as a reason why. I only want to see him win so he can silence them and their dumb argument.

 

[Hacksaw]

I apologize for the waterfall of posts. Been too busy and just trying to catch up.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

I'm only trying to keep us on topic. The discussion is about the greatest to ever play the QB position -- not the greatest performances by a QB in the playoffs or which QB played on the better TEAM.

So, in the interest of getting back on topic...

Peyton has AVERAGED over 4,000 yards passing per season over the course of his career. How many other QBs in the history of the NFL accomplished that feat before Peyton came along.

Bonus question: How many times in his career did Joe Montana throw for 4,000 yards or more in a season?

Hint: the answer is the same for both questions.

Like I said you cannot have it both ways. Either football is a team sport or its not. You have stated before when talking about Brady and Montana that they benefited from great TEAMS. Implying that because of their TEAMS, they were great. However when you talk about Manning, its because HE is great and not his team. Sorry but this faulty logic.

I will ask you again this question. If the Broncos win the SB will it be just because of Peyton? Or will it be a combination of a great group of WR's, one of the best kickers, the defense coming alive and playing great at the right time, the best offensive line in the NFL and a decent/good underrated running game and Peyton?

As far passing stats, Peyton has attempted 8452 passes and Montana only attempted 5391 passes. So Manning has attempted 3061 more passes.

Manning has averaged at least 500 pass attempts 13/15 years and has attempted over 600 twice. Montana only had 2 seasons where he had over 500 attempts and both of those went for almost 4000 yards. So based on the math here, if Montana would have thrown as many times as Manning has, then he would have had probably as many 4000 yard seasons.

Yes he has averaged 4000 yards but who was he throwing it to? Was he just throwing it to himself? Or did he have some great offensive personnel?

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Well, that's a strawman argument as it applies to me. I have said REPEATEDLY that I don't feel Peyton has anything to prove and that he is the GOAT even if he never won a SB. The problem is all these people out there who refuse to give him his due credit and want to cite a lack of TEAM accomplishments as a reason why. I only want to see him win so he can silence them and their dumb argument.

So football is not a team game but an individual sport where greatness is only measured by regular season stats?

 

[BadJerry20]

Steve Young was 3–16 in 19 games as a starter, completing less than 55% of his passes and amassing 11 TDs and 21 INTs in the portion of his NFL career that was NOT played as a 49er.

Yet, when he stepped in for Montana, his performance was so impressive that it led to a QB controversy in SF that eventually saw Montana leave for KC.

He was 3-16 at Tampa Bay in his first 2 seasons as a pro. They were a terrible franchise, if you don't think you is all time great then you don't know football.

There was controversy before Montana got injured. That simply opened the door to move on. The Colts let Manning go in favor of drafting Luck so I don't get your point.

Spin it however you wish Young is a top 10-15, Painter and Orlovsky are bottom 10-15 QBs of all time. So your initial argument is still a terrible one.

 

[BadJerry20]

Well, that's a strawman argument as it applies to me. I have said REPEATEDLY that I don't feel Peyton has anything to prove and that he is the GOAT even if he never won a SB. The problem is all these people out there who refuse to give him his due credit and want to cite a lack of TEAM accomplishments as a reason why. I only want to see him win so he can silence them and their dumb argument.

I said people, I didn't say your name. I've seen multiple poster do exactly what I said.

So you thought Favre was the GOAT before Manning?

 

[BadJerry20]

So football is not a team game but an individual sport where greatness is only measured by regular season stats?

Teammates don't matter when getting stats, I found this out in a different thread. I brought up his line and wrs, I was told they were not any good. Trust me when I say, you won't get any objectivity out of this argument only spinning.

 

[Hacksaw]

You have stated before when talking about Brady and Montana that they benefited from great TEAMS. Implying that because of their TEAMS, they were great. However when you talk about Manning, its because HE is great and not his team. Sorry but this faulty logic.

No, I have said that because they played on great TEAMs, it is unfair to put so much weight on their performances in playoffs and championships. And that's because TEAMs win games and championships in football -- not individual players. Look at the names engraved on the Lombardi trophy. They are the names of TEAMs, not individuals. And yet the Lombardi trophies are the determining factor in some peoples' minds about who is the GOAT at QB. It totally ignores the fact that some of the greatest were never fortunate enough to play on a TEAM that was good enough to win a SB -- or even make it to a SB.

I will ask you again this question. If the Broncos win the SB will it be just because of Peyton? Or will it be a combination of a great group of WR's, one of the best kickers, the defense coming alive and playing great at the right time, the best offensive line in the NFL and a decent/good underrated running game and Peyton?

That's easy. It will be a TEAM accomplishment. It always is, even if some people seem to think otherwise. So if Denver winning another SB while Peyton is their QB elevates him in their eyes then I'll shake my head but I'll be happy for Peyton.

As far passing stats, Peyton has attempted 8452 passes and Montana only attempted 5391 passes. So Manning has attempted 3061 more passes.

Manning has averaged at least 500 pass attempts 13/15 years and has attempted over 600 twice. Montana only had 2 seasons where he had over 500 attempts and both of those went for almost 4000 yards. So based on the math here, if Montana would have thrown as many times as Manning has, then he would have had probably as many 4000 yard seasons.

Yes he has averaged 4000 yards but who was he throwing it to? Was he just throwing it to himself? Or did he have some great offensive personnel?

I'm sure Joe would have thrown more if he needed to. But he almost always had a much better running game than Peyton and he didn't have to score as many points as Peyton thanks to playing on teams with better defenses. Still, Peyton has had a better career completion %, higher average yards/attempt, higher TD% and an identical interception % -- all of which equals a higher career passer rating.

 

[Hacksaw]

Teammates don't matter when getting stats, I found this out in a different thread. I brought up his line and wrs, I was told they were not any good. Trust me when I say, you won't get any objectivity out of this argument only spinning.

Aw, c'mon. There's no spinning here. You have your opinion and I have mine. Shouldn't I at least get credit for trying to back mine up with stats and facts? I'm putting in some work here -- heh.

 

[Hacksaw]

Here's what I posted on another thread a few days ago after Sunday's game:

Did everyone notice how much easier it seemed to be for Peyton to have a great performance in a big game yesterday when he, oh by the way, just happened to be playing on what was clearly the better TEAM? And did everyone else notice how Brady, while clearly showing signs of being the great QB he is, struggled and was unable to get the win on a day when he, oh by the way, just happened to be playing on what was clearly NOT the better TEAM?

It's what I've always said: you can talk about wins and championships, but it's a TEAM game. TEAMs win championships. Brady is still a great QB, despite yesterday's loss. Peyton was a great QB before yesterday's big win. Rings are given waaay too much weight when people get going on the GOAT arguments.

 

[BadJerry20]

Aw, c'mon. There's no spinning here. You have your opinion and I have mine. Shouldn't I at least get credit for trying to back mine up with stats and facts? I'm putting in some work here -- heh.

Now Hacksaw, you definitely tried spinning the QB situation post Manning and Montana. Lol Seriously though despite your extreme man crush on PM, you're alright Hacksaw. We obviously just see what makes the GOAT differently, doesn't make either right or wrong. Except me...cause I'm definitely right.

 

[Wylo]

Aaron Rodgers would probably be out of the league right now if he didn't get to sit those 3 years.

funniest post of the new year. well done. you can't seriously believe that.

 

[BadJerry20]

Here's what I posted on another thread a few days ago after Sunday's game:

Seriously the rings portion of my comment earlier was not directed at you, I remember your stance from before. But I have seen other posters say that.

 

[Volosaurus rex]

In assessing the relative weight of supporting cast vs. the individual performances of quarterbacks in this discussion, especially as it pertains ultimately to post-season success, I believe that team rankings in scoring defense and rushing offense are particularly enlightening. This will be lengthy, so I will post in two separate communiqués, the first of which analyzes scoring defense. Beginning with 2001, when Brady became the starting quarterback for New England, we see the following:

2001: NE (6th), 272 points; INDY (31st), 486 points. NE wins Super Bowl. INDY finishes 6-10.
2002: NE (17th), 346 points; INDY (7th), 313 points. INDY finishes 10-6, NE 9-7.
2003: NE (1st), 238 points; INDY (20th), 336 points. NE wins Super Bowl. INDY finishes 12-4.
2004: NE (2nd), 260 points; INDY (19th), 351 points. NE wins Super Bowl, INDY finishes 12-4.
2005: NE (17th), 338 points; INDY (2nd), 247 points. INDY finishes 14-2, NE finishes 10-6.
2006: NE (2nd), 237 points; INDY (23rd), 360 points. Both teams finish 12-4. INDY wins Super Bowl.
2007: NE (4th), 274 points; INDY (1st), 262 points. NE finishes 16-0, INDY finishes 13-3.
2008: NE (8th), 309 points; INDY (7th), 298 points. NE finishes 11-5, INDY finishes 12-4. Brady was injured in opener and missed the rest of season.
2009: NE (5th), 285 points; INDY (8th), 307 points. NE finishes 10-6, INDY finishes 14-2.
2010: NE (8th), 313 points; INDY (23rd), 388 points. NE finishes 14-2, INDY finishes 10-6.
2011: NE (15th), 342 points; INDY (28th), 430 points. NE finishes 13-3, INDY finishes 2-14. Manning misses entire season.
2012: NE (9th), 331 points; Denver (4th), 289 points. NE finishes 12-4, Denver finishes 13-3.
2013: NE (10th), 338 points; Denver (22nd), 399 points. NE finishes 12-4 and Denver finishes 13-3.

What can we conclude from this data? New England’s three Super Bowl victories during the Brady era were supported by defenses that ranked 6th, 1st and 2nd, respectively. Peyton’s one Super Bowl ring, on the other hand, is a true statistical outlier; it was won despite a defense that ranked 23rd in scoring defense.

Brady has never played with a defense ranked lower than 17th in this category; he has enjoyed the support of ten top 10 defenses and 6 top six defenses. From 2001 until the present, the Patriots’ average defensive ranking in this category has been 7.9.

Defensive rankings of teams that Peyton has quarterbacked have been much more variable. Their average ranking throughout this period has been 15th, but this does not begin to tell the whole picture. Peyton has enjoyed the support of six top ten defenses and three top five defenses; he also has been saddled with six defenses, including the present one, which have ranked 20th or lower in scoring defense.

The 49ers during Montana’s era were even more consistently dominant on defense than the Patriots, with Brady at the helm:

1981 (Montana’s first full year as starter): 2nd (250 pts.). SF wins Super Bowl.
1982 (23rd in the strike-shortened nine-game season), 206 points. 3-6 record.
1983 (4th), 293 points. 10-6 record.
1984 (1st), 227 points. SF is 15-1, wins Super Bowl.
1985 (2nd to the other-worldly Chicago Bears defense), 263 points. 10-6 record.
1986 (3rd), 247 points. 10-5-1 (Montana played only eight games).
1987 (3rd), 253 points. 13-2 record (Montana started only 11 games).
1988 (8th), 294 points. 10-6 regular season, SF wins Super Bowl.
1989 (3rd), 253 points. 14-2 regular season, SF wins Super Bowl.
1990 (2nd), 239 points. 14-2 regular season.

So, as phenomenally as Montana played in his Super Bowl appearances, he also had the 2nd, 1st, 8th and 3rd best scoring defenses, respectively, at his back.

All data were excerpted from Pro-Football-Reference.com - Pro Football Statistics and History.

All of this really makes you appreciate more fully what Peyton has accomplished as an NFL quarterback. He has been dealt a hand more comparable to that of Dan Marino than Tom Brady or Joe Montana, i.e. excellent skilled position players and, for the most part, mediocre defenses.

There is no question that Montana and Brady were/are extraordinary quarterbacks. However, it can be argued that there is also a certain "McCarron effect" here as well. When you have a consistently strong defense at your back, you can afford to be highly efficient and resist the temptation to make risky, gunslinger-like throws a la Marino or Favre. Because of the hit-or-miss nature of defenses he has played with, Peyton has had to directly shoulder more of the responsibility for the success of his teams than Brady or Montana has over the course of their careers. You can nitpick as to who individually is the better clutch performer over various portions of their respective careers, but you can also find supporting evidence here for the oldest fundamental truth in football. Even when you are talking about QBs as great as these three, defense wins championships.