Tragic Story of incompetence by LSU football.

[DaddyChad]

Even if that is true, I don't see how that would be Kelly's fault. He isn't a doctor and has no expertise or authority to make that call.

If someone is at fault here, and that is really up for debate, it seems like it would be LSU's medical staff or Our Lady of the Lake.

Medical staff bare minimum sounds like they missed something. Of course this is one side of the story.

 

[05_never_again]

He's the CEO. Criminal negligence. No different than in industry. A plant manager may not make the call on an issue that causes injury in his plant, but if it happens he can go to jail for it. Not his call to clear to play or practice. Agreed. But, it is his job to ensure HIS medical staff is on top of things. I don't know the heirarchy, maybe the university hires all athletic medical staff. We do know the HC cannot tell the med staff to let someone play. Even if, that's the case, a tuned in HC would question the prolonged issue and shouldn't they consider getting him evaluated. And hte med staff should have already known there medical limitations and made that call without delay after the symptoms continued. They all got a hand in this.

And to Yankee's point, did the father and son not talk at all in those 39 days?

But, if BK got away Scot Free on the ND death, he's in no real danger here. It'll roll down hill.

What exactly does the bolded mean? What did you want BK to do in this situation? Say "Hey, I know you think he's got vertigo, but it could be something else...take him to the hospital?" What in his expertise, training, etc. equips him to make such a suggestion? Millions of people have the same symptoms that Brooks had, over a prolonged period of time, and have...vertigo. Not a brain tumor. This is some incredible Monday morning quarterbacking going on because we have the benefit of knowing that this is the one out of a million case where a person actually did have a serious problem, and it is really easy and lazy to point fingers.

Any decisions about diagnosis, treatment (even if they are just making suggestions, which is what you seem to be suggesting BK should have done), etc. of an injury or illness a coach should have absolutely nothing to do with. That has always been a big no no. When a guy gets a concussion or suspected concussion, for example, the coach has absolutely nothing to do with the protocol. It isn't up to him to decide if a player has a concussion or not, decide or suggest to the medical staff what the treatment should be, or when/if he should play. It is completely out of the hands of the coaches. This situation should be no different than that.

If I'm a head coach and a player comes down with some sort of non-football related illness, I'm sure as hell not suggesting any particular course of treatment. What qualifies me to do that?

If there's a case to be had here, it seems like is against LSU's training staff or the surgeon at the hospital.

 

[Firebirdparts]

I do think BK is an a-hole, but it seems entirely possible he hasn't been in contact with Brooks's family because they've sued LSU. Brooks's dad said himself that he hasn't been in contact since shortly after the surgery, and that's exactly when they sued. He did visit Brooks in the hospital.

When a young person in great health suffers from nausea and headaches, is the first thought "Oh, I bet that's a brain tumor?" This is such a sad situation, and I feel horrible for Brooks and his family, but is it really anyone's fault?

Guys on here just grasp at anything to play butthurt. It’s none of our business.

It’s not my job to diagnose your brain tumor. Anybody who says it is just pretending because they love drama.

 

[GVF]

What exactly does the bolded mean? What did you want BK to do in this situation? Say "Hey, I know you think he's got vertigo, but it could be something else...take him to the hospital?" What in his expertise, training, etc. equips him to make such a suggestion? Millions of people have the same symptoms that Brooks had, over a prolonged period of time, and have...vertigo. Not a brain tumor. This is some incredible Monday morning quarterbacking going on because we have the benefit of knowing that this is the one out of a million case where a person actually did have a serious problem, and it is really easy and lazy to point fingers.

Any decisions about diagnosis, treatment (even if they are just making suggestions, which is what you seem to be suggesting BK should have done), etc. of an injury or illness a coach should have absolutely nothing to do with. That has always been a big no no. When a guy gets a concussion or suspected concussion, for example, the coach has absolutely nothing to do with the protocol. It isn't up to him to decide if a player has a concussion or not, decide or suggest to the medical staff what the treatment should be, or when/if he should play. It is completely out of the hands of the coaches. This situation should be no different than that.

If I'm a head coach and a player comes down with some sort of non-football related illness, I'm sure as hell not suggesting any particular course of treatment. What qualifies me to do that?

If there's a case to be had here, it seems like is against LSU's training staff or the surgeon at the hospital.

The common sense fact that he was like this every single day for multiple days. And as an experienced HC over football programs for X amount of years, the common knowledge when something is not right. And he didn't show the intelligence God gave a dead mule to question one dadgum thing or show concern enough to question one dadgum thing, thinking maybe, just maybe something might be wrong. It's why they call it negligence, and he is not required to have medical expertise to be held negligeable for someone entrusted to his care as a HC, which is the CEO of the program.

Never said BK should suggest a course of treatment. He's not qualified of course. But, as the HC/CEO of hte program and the player he is responsible for, he had every responsibility to follow up on his treatment, or lack thereof, and question why his player has shown chronic symptoms with no other causes considered. And apparently no communication to the parents as well. He's more than qualified to request/require follow up reports, and question ongoing symptoms as the HC.

 

[05_never_again]

The common sense fact that he was like this every single day for multiple days. And as an experienced HC over football programs for X amount of years, the common knowledge when something is not right. And he didn't show the intelligence God gave a dead mule to question one dadgum thing or show concern enough to question one dadgum thing, thinking maybe, just maybe something might be wrong. It's why they call it negligence, and he is not required to have medical expertise to be held negligeable for someone entrusted to his care as a HC, which is the CEO of the program.

Never said BK should suggest a course of treatment. He's not qualified of course. But, as the HC/CEO of hte program and the player he is responsible for, he had every responsibility to follow up on his treatment, or lack thereof, and question why his player has shown chronic symptoms with no other causes considered. And apparently no communication to the parents as well. He's more than qualified to request/require follow up reports, and question ongoing symptoms as the HC.

You have the luxury of saying it was "common sense" that something horrible was wrong because you know how the story turned out. A football coach really has no basis for "requiring" anything from his medical staff, or "question ongoing symptoms." That's absolutely ridiculous. "You sure he has a concussion doc? He looks OK to me!!!"

Millions and millions of people have those same symptoms every year and they have vertigo. Even if they had rushed him to the hospital the first time he got dizzy and threw up, I bet he still would have needed emergency surgery for the brain tumor. I doubt the tumor went from nothing to an emergency situation in 39 days.

 

[woodpusher]

You have the luxury of saying it was "common sense" that something horrible was wrong because you know how the story turned out. A football coach really has no basis for "requiring" anything from his medical staff, or "question ongoing symptoms." That's absolutely ridiculous. "You sure he has a concussion doc? He looks OK to me!!!"

Millions and millions of people have those same symptoms every year and they have vertigo. Even if they had rushed him to the hospital the first time he got dizzy and threw up, I bet he still would have needed emergency surgery for the brain tumor. I doubt the tumor went from nothing to an emergency situation in 39 days.

Turbocancers are way up since the vax...

 

[GVF]

You have the luxury of saying it was "common sense" that something horrible was wrong because you know how the story turned out. A football coach really has no basis for "requiring" anything from his medical staff, or "question ongoing symptoms." That's absolutely ridiculous. "You sure he has a concussion doc? He looks OK to me!!!"

Millions and millions of people have those same symptoms every year and they have vertigo. Even if they had rushed him to the hospital the first time he got dizzy and threw up, I bet he still would have needed emergency surgery for the brain tumor. I doubt the tumor went from nothing to an emergency situation in 39 days.

You're being an idiot. If the med staff keeps sending me a player they say is OK to go that it's nothing and the player keeps being dizzy and vomiting every single day, and they play this game for 39 days, he dang sure should have asked questions and inquired if the player needed a specialist evaluation. It's plum stupid to say otherwise. And if that is the level to which you'd show concern for your players you'd be as big a POS as he is. It's 100% common sense. The players parents and the player entrusted themselves to him as the HC. They look to him first, then the rest of the staff. Same for any program. I'd wager 100% anything Saban, or Kirby or just about any HC would have inquired to the med staff if they keep clearing a player that can't even function. There were red flags all over this situation and no one did a thing.

Tell me where the eval was that the med staff just brushed it off and said it was just vertigo. They're just sports med docs, not neurologists or specialists. And everyone just rolled with that even though it was an everyday thing that did not clear up. BK had every right and responsibility to follow up and ask questions on his player at that point. The entire staff was at fault, and negligence rolls up hill.

 

[LouderVol]

You have the luxury of saying it was "common sense" that something horrible was wrong because you know how the story turned out. A football coach really has no basis for "requiring" anything from his medical staff, or "question ongoing symptoms." That's absolutely ridiculous. "You sure he has a concussion doc? He looks OK to me!!!"

Millions and millions of people have those same symptoms every year and they have vertigo. Even if they had rushed him to the hospital the first time he got dizzy and threw up, I bet he still would have needed emergency surgery for the brain tumor. I doubt the tumor went from nothing to an emergency situation in 39 days.

some brain tumors can double in size in two weeks.

granted those are the extreme cases, but it can certainly go from needing attention to being an emergency in 39 days.

and the bigger it is, the more brain that has to be removed, and the worse recovery is.

 

[LouderVol]

You're being an idiot. If the med staff keeps sending me a player they say is OK to go that it's nothing and the player keeps being dizzy and vomiting every single day, and they play this game for 39 days, he dang sure should have asked questions and inquired if the player needed a specialist evaluation. It's plum stupid to say otherwise. And if that is the level to which you'd show concern for your players you'd be as big a POS as he is. It's 100% common sense. The players parents and the player entrusted themselves to him as the HC. They look to him first, then the rest of the staff. Same for any program. I'd wager 100% anything Saban, or Kirby or just about any HC would have inquired to the med staff if they keep clearing a player that can't even function. There were red flags all over this situation and no one did a thing.

Tell me where the eval was that the med staff just brushed it off and said it was just vertigo. They're just sports med docs, not neurologists or specialists. And everyone just rolled with that even though it was an everyday thing that did not clear up. BK had every right and responsibility to follow up and ask questions on his player at that point. The entire staff was at fault, and negligence rolls up hill.

yeah I don't expect BK to demand they take him to the emergency room, but some questions would seem valid after a week or two.

"Hey, he has been dealing with this for a while, is he ok? Is there something that we can do? Should we be concerned?"

even just from a football standpoint, you want your guys healthy and playing their best. any long term medical issue should be a topic of discussion or question.

 

[05_never_again]

yeah I don't expect BK to demand they take him to the emergency room, but some questions would seem valid after a week or two.

"Hey, he has been dealing with this for a while, is he ok? Is there something that we can do? Should we be concerned?"

even just from a football standpoint, you want your guys healthy and playing their best. any long term medical issue should be a topic of discussion or question.

"No boss, he's got vertigo. He's fine."

What do you do then?

 

[GVF]

yeah I don't expect BK to demand they take him to the emergency room, but some questions would seem valid after a week or two.

"Hey, he has been dealing with this for a while, is he ok? Is there something that we can do? Should we be concerned?"

even just from a football standpoint, you want your guys healthy and playing their best. any long term medical issue should be a topic of discussion or question.

And that's exactly my point that doesn't seem to resonate. I never said BK should be recommending courses of treatment and diagnosis. But, I did say he should have had enough common snese to start asking quesitons after a fews days of this.

 

[05_never_again]

And that's exactly my point that doesn't seem to resonate. I never said BK should be recommending courses of treatment and diagnosis. But, I did say he should have had enough common snese to start asking quesitons after a fews days of this.

Now that we've been discussing this, you seem to have backed off the notion that BK had some kind of decision-making responsibility related to his diagnosis or treatment (see your posts #41 and #42).

Let's say that he did ask questions of his trainers (we don't know if he did or didn't). It isn't like the trainers are going to listen to the HC. If your point now is that BK should have inquired more during the 39-day period about his condition, maybe he did do that. We don't know.

 

[GVF]

"No boss, he's got vertigo. He's fine."

What do you do then?

Ask who diagnosed the vertigo?? Just a hunch that would be a good place to start. What doctor said this outside of this staff, and who on this staff is qualified to diagnose this cause I got a player that's got something wrong and I'm responsible to his parents for his well being while in my school on my roster. Cause he ain't got no better. And you keep clearing a player that obviously has something going on rather than just shrugging your shoulders. And speaking of parents, It's time we notify them and let them in on the decision making. If this is at good as gets at LSU getting looked after medically and as a player that is supposed to trust the staff, all of them, then 85 players need to hit the portal.

Was it not the trip to a real doctor after 39 days when they found out it was not vertigo. Vertigo is not sports medicine. It's not something that a sports medicine staff would be trained and qualified to diagnose or treat. They should have never made that call, and BK had the authority to ask questions. If that was their opinion, he should have been immediately taken in for diagnosis and confirmation and course of action.

 

[GVF]

Now that we've been discussing this, you seem to have backed off the notion that BK had some kind of decision-making responsibility related to his diagnosis or treatment (see your posts #41 and #42).

Let's say that he did ask questions of his trainers (we don't know if he did or didn't). It isn't like the trainers are going to listen to the HC. If your point now is that BK should have inquired more during the 39-day period about his condition, maybe he did do that. We don't know.

This is post #41:
In the Asst. Coaches vast medical experyise, his 1st thought was "you got vertigo...go back to practice." 39 days of football coach medical analysis. It is absolutely the coaching staffs fault for continuing to medically self diagnose a player suffering the same symptoms day in and day out for 39 days. By day 3, maybe even day 5 at the worst, they should have had him medically evaluated.

This is post #42:
Then why did he make the call NOT to send him to the doctor for 39 days. He is the Head Coach. It rests on his shoulders with his training staff.


At this point you're just creating words I didn't say. But, I said from the beginning BK should have absolutely inquired about his ongoing, unimproved condition. He is the HC. He bears ultimate responsibility to the parents for the wellfare of their kids. The team staff kept sending him a player that should not have been cleared. It was his right and responsiblity at a reasonable point of several days to a week to start asking questions. That is painfully obvious and flies right over your head. There are others that bear reponsbility in this fiasco too, but he is the HC. The CEO. And as for Post #42, I absolutely stand day that statement. That is an insistance that something is wrong with my player, and he needs help. It's responsible leadership. Tell me if you think Saban, as HC, would have allowed this for 39 days.

And as I've already said, Vertigo is not a sports related illness or injury. If that's what they thought, he should have been at the med facility day 1 or 2. Wasn't their call to diagnose in the first place. Their calling it vertigo was just an opinion, and a very bad one.

 

[LouderVol]

"No boss, he's got vertigo. He's fine."

What do you do then?

ask if its normal for vertigo to last this long. ask if he is ok to play, or if he needs to sit to help get over it faster.

I am fine with your stance for a week or two. but after that you should be asking questions.

 

[05_never_again]

ask if its normal for vertigo to last this long. ask if he is ok to play, or if he needs to sit to help get over it faster.

I am fine with your stance for a week or two. but after that you should be asking questions.

Vertigo can last a long time. Familiar with David Duval?

There's just so much hindsight, easy Monday morning quarterbacking in @GVF's analysis of the situation. This is the one in a million case where someone's vertigo symptoms were actually something more serious. It is a tragic situation, but I'm not convinced that it is anyone's fault. Especially the head coach's.

If someone is at fault, then it is LSU's training staff or the hospital where he had the surgery. You don't want coaches involved in any way, even if it is just "asking questions," into medical situations of players. Whether the injury or illness is football-related or not. That's how players end up feeling pressured to go back on the field with concussions and such.

 

[GVF]

Vertigo can last a long time. Familiar with David Duval?

There's just so much hindsight, easy Monday morning quarterbacking in @GVF's analysis of the situation. This is the one in a million case where someone's vertigo symptoms were actually something more serious. It is a tragic situation, but I'm not convinced that it is anyone's fault. Especially the head coach's.

If someone is at fault, then it is LSU's training staff or the hospital where he had the surgery. You don't want coaches involved in any way, even if it is just "asking questions," into medical situations of players. Whether the injury or illness is football-related or not. That's how players end up feeling pressured to go back on the field with concussions and such.

My wife is very familiar with Vertigo.

BTW, who again diagnosed the player with Vertigo? A neurological specialist or a sports trainer?

Also BTW, a coach has every right and obligation to ask questions about the medical and health well-being of his players.

I'm not Monday morning quarterbacking. If I am then so are you. I'm saying what a coach should be concerned about, and questioning if conditions aren't showing visible improvement. You're entire argument on this has been idiotic, and you're the only one QB'ing me. See other repsonses besides mine. You're the only one in your camp.

 

[AurantiacoFan]

BK says Greg Brooks is up walking

Linked article from March 2024. Ouch! It was not true.

 

[05_never_again]

My wife is very familiar with Vertigo.

BTW, who again diagnosed the player with Vertigo? A neurological specialist or a sports trainer?

Also BTW, a coach has every right and obligation to ask questions about the medical and health well-being of his players.

I'm not Monday morning quarterbacking. If I am then so are you. I'm saying what a coach should be concerned about, and questioning if conditions aren't showing visible improvement. You're entire argument on this has been idiotic, and you're the only one QB'ing me. See other repsonses besides mine. You're the only one in your camp.

How do we know he wasn't asking questions about it, or checking in on him?

I'm done because this isn't going anywhere anymore. You suggested earlier that the decision to treat him ultimately rests of BK's shoulders:

Then why did he make the call NOT to send him to the doctor for 39 days. He is the Head Coach. It rests on his shoulders with his training staff.

...which is not true, and should never be the case for any coach. Now you seem to have backed off into saying that he should have checked in on him (which I don't disagree with, and for all we know, he might have).

This site hates BK, so I'm not surprised I'm the only one with this take. That doesn't mean my argument is invalid anyway.

 

[GVF]

How do we know he wasn't asking questions about it, or checking in on him?

I'm done because this isn't going anywhere anymore. You suggested earlier that the decision to treat him ultimately rests of BK's shoulders:

...which is not true, and should never be the case for any coach. Now you seem to have backed off into saying that he should have checked in on him (which I don't disagree with, and for all we know, he might have).

This site hates BK, so I'm not surprised I'm the only one with this take. That doesn't mean my argument is invalid anyway.

How do we know he wasn't asking questions about it, or checking in on him? We don't know that he was. We don't know that he wasn't. So why did you even absolve him. The thread was pure specualtion to begin with, other than what is said on the video. It was about the interest and care as a HC of WHAT he should have done.

I'm done because this isn't going anywhere anymore. You suggested earlier that the decision to treat him ultimately rests of BK's shoulders: I suggested it was his responsibility as HC to question why he wasn't better after a resonable amount of days since his staff is not qualified to diagnose neurological decisions in the first place, and if he needed other evaluation. Like any normal person would. I never suggested BK diagnose or plan a course of medical treatment. Only to ensure his staff is adequately caring for the players he is responsible for.

...which is not true, and should never be the case for any coach. Now you seem to have backed off into saying that he should have checked in on him (which I don't disagree with, and for all we know, he might have). I'm not backing off at all the he should have checked in on him. My entire stance is that he should have. You accused me of saying BK should have diagnosed him and planned his care. Now though it seems you are hedging that you do agree he should have shown concern for his player. That's a first in this thread. You still have avoided why you accept that unqualified team medical staff diagnosed off the hip without testing that he had vertigo, which is not sports related. Nor, have you answered if you believe Nick Saban, or Kirby Smart, or CJH even would have let this go for 39 days. My entire stance has nothing to do with BK MAKING medical decisions. It's about him not questioning medical decisions made by HIS STAFF for a condition they were not qualified to make and the fact that it was so plain to see that their evaluation was not accurate. I know for a fact Vertigo will not go 39 straight days without relief. I have a wife with vertigo to prove it. And my dad too.

This site hates BK, so I'm not surprised I'm the only one with this take. That doesn't mean my argument is invalid anyway. It's highly probable others are also not surprised you're the only one with this take. Though, he has a track record of not putting the interest of safety and health first, as evidenced at ND even though he had a layer of legal protection, as he does here. But, we're not talking legalities. We're talking common decency as a HC, which he allegedly lacked in this instance, and in the ND instance.

 

[GrayWaterCanine]

How do we know he wasn't asking questions about it, or checking in on him?

I'm done because this isn't going anywhere anymore. You suggested earlier that the decision to treat him ultimately rests of BK's shoulders:

...which is not true, and should never be the case for any coach. Now you seem to have backed off into saying that he should have checked in on him (which I don't disagree with, and for all we know, he might have).

This site hates BK, so I'm not surprised I'm the only one with this take. That doesn't mean my argument is invalid anyway.

I tend to agree. No Kelly fan here. It's a double standard. People want coaches out of players medical decisions to avoid conflicts of interest, but now they are up in arms because the coach may have separated himself from medical decisions. Can't have it both ways.

 

[GVF]

I tend to agree. No Kelly fan here. It's a double standard. People want coaches out of players medical decisions to avoid conflicts of interest, but now they are up in arms because the coach may have separated himself from medical decisions. Can't have it both ways.

Medical decisions by a coach is a far cry from raising questions about a medically cleared player that cannot physically function daily for 39 days.

I think we all agree a coach's best interest is not to make the call on who can play or not.

But, he most certainly can question his staff on why they keep clearing a player to practice that clearly cannot.

 

[GrayWaterCanine]

Medical decisions by a coach is a far cry from raising questions about a medically cleared player that cannot physically function daily for 39 days.

I think we all agree a coach's best interest is not to make the call on who can play or not.

But, he most certainly can question his staff on why they keep clearing a player to practice that clearly cannot.

Football activity did not exacerbate any of his physical ailments, so that is a red herring at best. If football activity was an issue then maybe I buy your argument, but otherwise it would not remotely fall in the coach's purview.

 

[GVF]

Football activity did not exacerbate any of his physical ailments, so that is a red herring at best. If football activity was an issue then maybe I buy your argument, but otherwise it would not remotely fall in the coach's purview.

So you wouldn't give a s*** about the health of your players. What the heck does football activity have to do with it. He was dizzy and puking at practice. So, you would just not give a crap that you had an ailing player for 39 days, but becuase you're only the HC you're not going to ask about his condition and what's been done. Totally within his right to do so. And makes him a lousy person for not doing so. It's not about a coach intervening and making medical decisions and treatments. It's about calling out staff and saying this has gone on long enough, try something different.

 

[wmcovol]

LSU will have to settle. They can’t afford to go into a courtroom with this young man even with 3/4 the jury LSU fans. LSU fans aren’t tickled with BK & certainly not their AD.