Turns out, slavery is good ... for the slaves

#454
#454
The fact is slavery is bad, even if it gets sh!t done.












Unless you're slaves are a female Swedish bikini team.
 
#455
#455
RockyTop85 said:
I don’t think that trying to learn all historical facts is a realistic goal for a grade school level course.

Also, a public, grade school education needs to be understood by people who, for example, struggle with the concept of different nations in Africa or who think that historical facts are variable based on the number of twitter followers of the person who aggregates them.

That being the case, what goes into a grade school history class is essentially triage and somewhat thematic. It’s about learning the “rule” not the “exceptions.”

So, I agree with you that “is this necessary” is a relevant question and “does this fit the theme” would also be a higher consideration than “is it an actual fact.”

As I said before, to me, discussion of success or benefit for slaves/former slaves/progeny seems unnecessary to learn about the historical effect of slavery and more thematically appropriate for a discussion of reconstruction. And it seems to be included there, somewhat. Alternatively, it seems plausible for inclusion in a longer course that can focus on more granular detail. Trying to work it in to a surface level discussion may result in a net negative understanding of history.
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There is generally a huge problem associated with the teaching of history especially at the elementary level. There's so much of it and so little time, and it is virtually impossible to really teach what historic events actually meant when even scholars often disagree. In the end it's a collection of fact like a guy named William invaded England in 1066 at a place named Hastings without real context or in one version on the what, why, and how. My son and I were discussing why he disliked history (HS at the time). I told him how much I enjoy learning history - not as a student and basically ended with "history as told in school is in many ways wasted on the young because they generally have no interest". That's not literally true, of course; but history, when there is the time to do it right with context and real understanding, means so much more than the weird and often skewed attempts to teach it in K-12.
 
#456
#456
FLVOL_79 said:
The fact is slavery is bad, even if it gets sh!t done.












Unless you're slaves are a female Swedish bikini team.
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I know you’re joking but your first line does go along with an insane left wing narrative. The claim that our country’s wealth was created through slavery. You have to have zero understanding of economics to believe that, but it’s amazing how widespread that view is
 
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#457
#457
AM64 said:
There is generally a huge problem associated with the teaching of history especially at the elementary level. There's so much of it and so little time, and it is virtually impossible to really teach what historic events actually meant when even scholars often disagree. In the end it's a collection of fact like a guy named William invaded England in 1066 at a place named Hastings without real context or in one version on the what, why, and how. My son and I were discussing why he disliked history (HS at the time). I told him how much I enjoy learning history - not as a student and basically ended with "history as told in school is in many ways wasted on the young because they generally have no interest". That's not literally true, of course; but history, when there is the time to do it right with context and real understanding, means so much more than the weird and often skewed attempts to teach it in K-12.
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First I’ve heard of any historians who disagree about slavery in a way that requires that we teach about how it benefitted slaves.
 
#458
#458
AM64 said:
That brings up something that in many pages has not really been addressed here. If slaves learned nothing of value while being slaves, was it morally or rationally responsible to emancipate them? Obviously they would have had no useful skills or even the knowledge necessary for self preservation and sustenance. It seems that the one sentence that has enraged so many is either obviously true or emancipation followed by the follies known as Reconstruction was an egregious act.
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They had skills which were of value to the owners or the owners wouldn't have spent money on them. Of course they would have learned skills otherwise had they not been enslaved.
I don't think we'd be having this discussion if that Clarification in SS.68.AA.2.3 read "...how the duties and trades carried out by slaves affected their lives after emancipation." Or something similar which couldn't be construed as them gaining benefit from slavery.
 
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#459
#459
EasternVol said:
They had skills which were of value to the owners or the owners wouldn't have spent money on them. Of course they would have learned skills otherwise had they not been enslaved.
I don't think we'd be having this discussion if that Clarification in SS.68.AA.2.3 read "...how the duties and trades carried out by slaves affected their lives after emancipation." Or something similar which couldn't be construed as them gaining benefit from slavery.
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Anyway you look at it slaves learned trades while being slaves, and they were able to use those to their benefit after emancipation. It's also probably fairly certain that slaves used trades learned to better their lives as slaves. Books I've read in the past certainly implied that slaves also worked for themselves - gardening, cooking, sewing, improving homes, etc. There's nothing false about saying they learned skills while slaves that benefitted them personally both during and then after slavery ended. The after part you'd suppose was for pay, and the during part you'd suppose was for personal benefit and by barter.
 
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#461
#461
AM64 said:
Anyway you look at it slaves learned trades while being slaves, and they were able to use those to their benefit after emancipation. It's also probably fairly certain that slaves used trades learned to better their lives as slaves. Books I've read in the past certainly implied that slaves also worked for themselves - gardening, cooking, sewing, improving homes, etc. There's nothing false about saying they learned skills while slaves that benefitted them personally both during and then after slavery ended. The after part you'd suppose was for pay, and the during part you'd suppose was for personal benefit and by barter.
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Would they have not potentially learned those skills had they not been enslaved? Farming, blacksmith, etc existed in Africa well before the US slave trade.
 
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#462
#462
volfanhill said:
Would they have not potentially learned those skills had they not been enslaved? Farming, blacksmith, etc existed in Africa well before the US slave trade.
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Sure. Anybody who works at a job picks up skills, and most are transferrable in one way or another. I just fail to see what is so terrible in recognizing that slaves learned skills while slaves that allowed them to work for profit once emancipated. Nobody is insisting that they needed to be slaves to learn or that slavery was a good thing. A couple of historians simply pointed out that there was a silver lining without any hint that it diminished the dark cloud.
 
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#463
#463
AM64 said:
Sure. Anybody who works at a job picks up skills, and most are transferrable in one way or another. I just fail to see what is so terrible in recognizing that slaves learned skills while slaves that allowed them to work for profit once emancipated. Nobody is insisting that they needed to be slaves to learn or that slavery was a good thing. A couple of historians simply pointed out that there was a silver lining without any hint that it diminished the dark cloud.
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Silver lining? But they would have learned it anyway. That's not a silver lining
 
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#466
#466
The inclusion of the point was ostensibly to praise those who were enslaved for their ingenuity in acquiring useful knowledge and skills that would help them despite their owners' efforts to prevent that from taking place. The author cited his own enslaved ancestor's actions as an example. The point was to show that slaves were not docilely accepting their fates and were actively working to undermine the institution and improve their own destinies. He was adamant that removing that point from the narrative would be an insult to his ancestor and all those who defied the oppressive yoke that aimed to keep them subservient.
 
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#471
#471
NashVol11 said:
Auschwitz memorial with a word after Fox predictably tries to "what about the positives" for the Holocaust

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Well we need to string up William L Shirer now as well. The same thing Greg said is discussed in Shirer's book The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. Based on your post seems you're not familiar with it.
 
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#473
#473
Vol8188 said:
I know you’re joking but your first line does go along with an insane left wing narrative. The claim that our country’s wealth was created through slavery. You have to have zero understanding of economics to believe that, but it’s amazing how widespread that view is
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Its from a shirt I saw on tshirt hell with a picture of the pyramids. It said "Slavery gets sh!t done". Always thought that was funny.
 
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#475
#475
Media running wild with Kamala Harris’ 'lie' on Florida's Black history education, curriculum co-author says

"She went there because it had been a planned event. She was asked to come in order to give it a high profile, and it was probably coordinated by the teachers’ union," Allen said.

"I say that this took place in this manner because the African-American History Workgroup in Florida worked from February to the end of April in open public sessions, inviting all comers who could not only listen, but can contribute, and the teachers’ union was absent throughout that whole process," Allen continued. "It remained silent until the process was sealed and delivered. And then like snakes who lay in the grass, they emerged to cast their sniper fire.

Allen said it boils down to impose a "fabric if lies" on the country that America "was born in slavery, grew in slavery and remains enslaved" to this day.


"That's the story that people want to tell from a certain perspective. And anything which challenges that, and which pulls out American principles, that one abolished slavery and two, recognizes accomplishment is incompatible with that narrative. So, I think that's what's driving the theory behind this issue," he said.
 
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