Two UT basketball players arrested

#76
#76
(lawgator1 @ Mar 7 said:
I respectfully disagree. I feel that student-athletes, as representatives of the university, can and indeed should be held to a somewhat higher standard than sophomore # 4,722.

If they want to be treated the same they should have the same academic standards for university entrance. My friends from Georgia Tech's excuse is always "well we're not great at sports because the school is too hard to get into". Tell that to Notre Dame?

I agree with lawgator, you're getting your education for free, represent the university with a higher standard.
 
#77
#77
(hatvol96 @ Mar 7 said:
I don't think strong programs should spend their time concerned with how the fickle media views them. A program should make the decisions it wants to make, not the ones the media and public want.
I wonder what the arguements for or against would be any different if they were football players and Fulmer was the one who had to make this decision?


in principle Hat, i agree with you, in your first satement above. Of course though, the media and PR do matter these days. you need only go to the football complex and ask CPF if media attn. matters or not. No academic insitution with an athletic program worth mentioning wants the kind of bad pr that could come if two guys that were arrested for possesion with intent to sell were not punished. the level of punishment is what's debatable, imo. And again, you also said that the level of charges and any possible conviciton of those charges may make the decision for the institution, but you can't honestly think that universities and AD's aren't concerned with how the media views them. Because how they get viewed, is how the media will protray them. And in this day in age of interenet, ESPN etc...the media plays more of a role than any of us would probably like it to.

no one is perfect, people will make mistakes, especially young people in college. Each case is different, each person is different, and that's why you can't treat each situation the same across the board. I'm not for 0 tolerance and i'm also not for 3 strikes and your out across the board. each one is unique and must be treated as deemed fit by those that make those decisons.
 
#78
#78
(hatvol96 @ Mar 7 said:
I don't think strong programs should spend their time concerned with how the fickle media views them. A program should make the decisions it wants to make, not the ones the media and public want. I'll use Cincinnati as an example, since I know a fair amount about the university and its program. The easy thing to do is to toss kids who have trouble. The mouthpieces in the media don't care about the kids, so nobody ever gets hit for throwing a kid off the team. UC, under Bob Huggins, always gave kids chances. Despite what the flawed NCAA numbers say, kids graduated and went on to success. The overwhelming majority of UC grads were happy with the program and proud of their school. Had they been concerned with what outsiders thought, that wouldn't have been the case. One of the main reasons they were able to recruit so well is that parents knew Huggs would stand by their kids, come good or bad. I simply would rather have a program run by a coach who stands on his beliefs, not what makes the schleps in the media happy. If Pearl truly believes this should result in dismissal, I would disagree, but I would feel comfortable with it. However, if he makes the move just to appease the Jackals in the Fourth Estate, he's not the man I believe him to be.
Finally, we both know if prosecutors feel the facts of this case are egregious enough, the decision will be taken out of Pearl's hands. That weight, under Tennesse law, would be nonprobatable. The players would have to serve time or be placed on some sort of stringent community corrections program. That result would render any debate moot.


Again, I have to disagree. I understand what you are saying, but the reality is that Pearl has a responsibility to the program down the line and to the university to craft an image of the acceptable student-athlete. I'm not stupid. I know that kids make mistakes and have to be disciplined (sometimes in a public manner) and that a second chance can be good, not just for the kid, but for the program in general. But at the same time, the notion of having a crack dealer on your team is just so offensive to me at first blush that I can't see any way to make it work out as the hoped for "win-win" situation.

Honestly, for the bigger picture, do you want UT basketball to have crack dealers for players? Now, go ahead and say that's an oversimplification. It is. But you know what? It is the way people will talk about it five years from now. And if there is another problem in between now and then, it will just be that much worse.

 
#79
#79
(jakez4ut @ Mar 7 said:
I wonder what the arguements for or against would be any different if they were football players and Fulmer was the one who had to make this decision?
in principle Hat, i agree with you, in your first satement above. Of course though, the media and PR do matter these days. you need only go to the football complex and ask CPF if media attn. matters or not. No academic insitution with an athletic program worth mentioning wants the kind of bad pr that could come if two guys that were arrested for possesion with intent to sell were not punished. the level of punishment is what's debatable, imo. And again, you also said that the level of charges and any possible conviciton of those charges may make the decision for the institution, but you can't honestly think that universities and AD's aren't concerned with how the media views them. Because how they get viewed, is how the media will protray them. And in this day in age of interenet, ESPN etc...the media plays more of a role than any of us would probably like it to.

no one is perfect, people will make mistakes, especially young people in college. Each case is different, each person is different, and that's why you can't treat each situation the same across the board. I'm not for 0 tolerance and i'm also not for 3 strikes and your out across the board. each one is unique and must be treated as deemed fit by those that make those decisons.
One of the things I most fervently hold against Fulmer is his dismissal of Nilo Silvan. He kicked a kid off the team that neither student conduct nor the criminal justice system felt needed to be punished. I agree that each situation is unique. One of the things I most admired about Tom Osborne as a coach was that he didn't let public perception dictate his disciplinary methods.
 
#80
#80
(lawgator1 @ Mar 7 said:
Honestly, for the bigger picture, do you want UT basketball to have crack dealers for players? Now, go ahead and say that's an oversimplification. It is. But you know what? It is the way people will talk about it five years from now. And if there is another problem in between now and then, it will just be that much worse.
5 years from now? are you kidding, it would be labeled as such as soon as the players were readmitted to the team....the court of public opinion is often times much worse than the court of law. Ask OJ.
 
#81
#81
(hatvol96 @ Mar 7 said:
One of the things I most fervently hold against Fulmer is his dismissal of Nilo Silvan. He kicked a kid off the team that neither student conduct nor the criminal justice system felt needed to be punished. I agree that each situation is unique. One of the things I most admired about Tom Osborne as a coach was that he didn't let public perception dictate his disciplinary methods.


Shall we email him and see what he thinks about kids who either manifestly abuse, or perhaps even sell, crack being on his team?
 
#82
#82
(hatvol96 @ Mar 7 said:
One of the things I most fervently hold against Fulmer is his dismissal of Nilo Silvan. He kicked a kid off the team that neither student conduct nor the criminal justice system felt needed to be punished. I agree that each situation is unique. One of the things I most admired about Tom Osborne as a coach was that he didn't let public perception dictate his disciplinary methods.
i was in school at UT when Nilo was there....uh, he wasn't an angel, and he got caught doing some things, well, that i can't even bring myself to speak about here....

And tom osbourne, well, he definitely looked, or went, the other way didn't he?

 
#83
#83
(lawgator1 @ Mar 7 said:
Shall we email him and see what he thinks about kids who either manifestly abuse, or perhaps even sell, crack being on his team?
He kept a kid charged with murder on the roster, my guess is that involvement in drugs falls somewhere behind that.
 
#84
#84
(jakez4ut @ Mar 7 said:
i was in school at UT when Nilo was there....uh, he wasn't an angel, and he got caught doing some things, well, that i can't even bring myself to speak about here....

And tom osbourne, well, he definitely looked, or went, the other way didn't he?
As to the Nilo Silvan incident, why wasn't Joey Kent also tossed? A friend of mine in law school was on student conduct at the time and he always asked me that question.
 
#85
#85
(hatvol96 @ Mar 7 said:
He kept a kid charged with murder on the roster, my guess is that involvement in drugs falls somewhere behind that.
i'd love to reply to that but it's just too funny..... :lol:
 
#86
#86
(hatvol96 @ Mar 7 said:
As to the Nilo Silvan incident, why wasn't Joey Kent also tossed? A friend of mine in law school was on student conduct at the time and he always asked me that question.
I think because, if memory serves, it didn't involve Joey, it involved an aquaintence of Joey's.
 
#87
#87
(hatvol96 @ Mar 7 said:
As to the Nilo Silvan incident, why wasn't Joey Kent also tossed? A friend of mine in law school was on student conduct at the time and he always asked me that question.
but back to the actual point...the media attention from such issues....would you not agree that bad pr these days is much more prevelant than in the past? and how that bad pr is portrayed in the media is a bigger issue than simply disregarding the ramifications of not acting?
 
#88
#88
(jakez4ut @ Mar 7 said:
5 years from now? are you kidding, it would be labeled as such as soon as the players were readmitted to the team....the court of public opinion is often times much worse than the court of law. Ask OJ.


Oh, I totally agree with you. What I was trying to say was that the label would stick and I think Pearl has to have that in mind as he shapes the program. Got to take the longer view when deciding how to best serve the interests of the university.

You may remember, a few weeks ago, I expressed great dismay over these UF football players having rifles and handguns. Apparently, other than the possible accidental shooting (still don't know about that), these guns were totally legal. Well, I nonetheless have a big problem with it. For the sake of my alma mater's integrity, I don't want football players armed for urban combat. I'd rather they be booted off the team to set an example of what we expect out of our student athletes than win some more games, if that is what it takes and even if it means that the Gators are not as competitive as I wish they would be.

Turst me, down here the general academic image of both FSU and Miami is hurt by the scandals in their sports programs. Know why? Because a lot more people catch stories on ESPN about FSU players involved in stealing shoes or faking chaecks than read about the FSU Supercomputer in Science Magazine.

Same for me. A lot more people get their impression of what UF is all about based on the fact that we have some football players with AK-47s in their apartments as opposed to those who decide what UF represents based on cancer research at the medical school.

And now here comes Pearl, a bright, energetic, total overachiever. This would appear to be his first chance to decide what he wants his legacy to be when it comes to having a role in shaping the university's image. Hope he makes the RIGHT decision.



 
#89
#89
(hatvol96 @ Mar 7 said:
That's the spirit. Tell parents you'll treat their kids as if they were your own during the recruiting process, then cut them loose at the first sign of trouble.


Punishment should fit the crime. This is very serious. Booting them off the team is very much appropriate. If this was another school we would be saying the same thing. Cut'em.
 
#90
#90
(jakez4ut @ Mar 7 said:
I think because, if memory serves, it didn't involve Joey, it involved an aquaintence of Joey's.
Yeah, an underage female essentially living in Joey's apartment. Also, Joey was "involved" in the evening's festivities.
 
#91
#91
(VolBeef88 @ Mar 7 said:
Punishment should fit the crime. This is very serious. Booting them off the team is very much appropriate. If this was another school we would be saying the same thing. Cut'em.
I wouldn't.
 
#92
#92
(hatvol96 @ Mar 7 said:
Yeah, an underage female essentially living in Joey's apartment. Also, Joey was "involved" in the evening's festivities.
ok, back to the original question about the media....
 
#93
#93
Consider posts 71 thru 88 to be in quotations here...

Reason being I wanted to take a moment to say that that was one of the smartest, most thoughtful, and respectful moments of debate I think I have ever read on here. Smart and entertaining and informative.
Great stuff guys!!!
 
#94
#94
just goes to show, great minds don't alwasy have to think alike....but it usually helps!!!
 
#95
#95
(jakez4ut @ Mar 7 said:
ok, back to the original question about the media....
You're right. The board doesn't need to descend into that territory. Sorry about that.
 
#96
#96
(lawgator1 @ Mar 7 said:
Oh, I totally agree with you. What I was trying to say was that the label would stick and I think Pearl has to have that in mind as he shapes the program. Got to take the longer view when deciding how to best serve the interests of the university.

You may remember, a few weeks ago, I expressed great dismay over these UF football players having rifles and handguns. Apparently, other than the possible accidental shooting (still don't know about that), these guns were totally legal. Well, I nonetheless have a big problem with it. For the sake of my alma mater's integrity, I don't want football players armed for urban combat. I'd rather they be booted off the team to set an example of what we expect out of our student athletes than win some more games, if that is what it takes and even if it means that the Gators are not as competitive as I wish they would be.

Turst me, down here the general academic image of both FSU and Miami is hurt by the scandals in their sports programs. Know why? Because a lot more people catch stories on ESPN about FSU players involved in stealing shoes or faking chaecks than read about the FSU Supercomputer in Science Magazine.

Same for me. A lot more people get their impression of what UF is all about based on the fact that we have some football players with AK-47s in their apartments as opposed to those who decide what UF represents based on cancer research at the medical school.

And now here comes Pearl, a bright, energetic, total overachiever. This would appear to be his first chance to decide what he wants his legacy to be when it comes to having a role in shaping the university's image. Hope he makes the RIGHT decision.
The RIGHT decision isn't always the popular or easy one.
 
#97
#97
couldn't agree more with that. and it goes both ways, whether to keep or get rid of them.
 
#98
#98
(hatvol96 @ Mar 7 said:
The RIGHT decision isn't always the popular or easy one.


Correct. But it also makes no sense to say that Pearl must keep them on the team just because the media is being critical. It could be, after all, that the media are right about this.

Someone earlier said that you can't base the decision on the police reports alone. Totally agree.

But let's not also jump the gun and circle the wagons based solely on the perception that the media are on the attack. If in fact these kids had or were going to sell crack cocaine then, to me, Pearl's decision on what to do with them is patently obvious.
 
#99
#99
(lawgator1 @ Mar 7 said:
Correct. But it also makes no sense to say that Pearl must keep them on the team just because the media is being critical. It could be, after all, that the media are right about this.

Someone earlier said that you can't base the decision on the police reports alone. Totally agree.

But let's not also jump the gun and circle the wagons based solely on the perception that the media are on the attack. If in fact these kids had or were going to sell crack cocaine then, to me, Pearl's decision on what to do with them is patently obvious.
LG, look at this way, maybe they could transfer to UF and they could hook up with the gun toting football players and finally, UF would be on the same level as Miami!!!!!















Couldn't resist.... :biggrin2:
 
(lawgator1 @ Mar 7 said:
Correct. But it also makes no sense to say that Pearl must keep them on the team just because the media is being critical. It could be, after all, that the media are right about this.

Someone earlier said that you can't base the decision on the police reports alone. Totally agree.

But let's not also jump the gun and circle the wagons based solely on the perception that the media are on the attack. If in fact these kids had or were going to sell crack cocaine then, to me, Pearl's decision on what to do with them is patently obvious.
I'm not saying he HAS to keep them. My point, which is contained in an earlier post, is that I want it to be HIS decision. If he believes this merits dismissal, I can live with that. I just don't want two kids tossed to appease the bombthrowers in the media.
 

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