U.S. Navy Not Fit For War

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Rasputin_Vol said:
WTF are you talking about? When have I ever said we don't need a military for defense? Show me the post where I said anything of the sort?

Where me and you disagree is where use our military for offensive measures halfway around the world in non-existential conflicts.


We have done a lot since WWII to stir up anomosity and hate, but even still, if we decided to engage in business and commerce instead of trying to escalate militarily, we all could rest easier.
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under US supremacy the world has undergone its longest period of sustained peace between major powers, allowing for untold technological advances, and unimpeded economic growth.

you keep saying we are creating animosity and hate and are being aggressive but the facts of the matter prove out the world has its most peaceful during that time. a fact you will never acknowledge nor try to address with your unfound hatred of our country.
 
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Who would want to serve with such treatment. That Afghan withdrawl was such a cluster ****. If that had been a R President, it would of been a political killer. The standards are so different it is pathetic.
 
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Orangeburst said:


Who would want to serve with such treatment. That Afghan withdrawl was such a cluster ****. If that had been a R President, it would of been a political killer. The standards are so different it is pathetic.
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The linked article discusses that issue in a general way ... about the failing to educate general and command officers to make correct military rather than political decisions. You'd think that most people understand a retreat or a withdrawal from hostile territory is like having a tiger by the tail. You are in a real precarious position; and when you let go of the tail, it's probably going to be more dangerous. It's not a trivial thing, yet the military either didn't understand the implications or refused to acknowledge the politics that prevented those who did understand from acting correctly and condemning the civilian or military leadership who caused the fiasco. You never improve without finding and acknowledging the source of a failure. People in charge want to be there; if they can't meet the challenge, they don't deserve to be there. That requires pinning the blame where it belongs.

You may have to sign up to read the article, but it is free and their articles are generally interesting.

www.military.com

Why Our Generals Can't Think

Having read Franklin Foer's account in the October issue of The Atlantic describing the disastrous evacuation of Afghanistan, I was struck by what it did not contain.
www.military.com www.military.com
 
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AM64 said:
The linked article discusses that issue in a general way ... about the failing to educate general and command officers to make correct military rather than political decisions. You'd think that most people understand a retreat or a withdrawal from hostile territory is like having a tiger by the tail. You are in a real precarious position; and when you let go of the tail, it's probably going to be more dangerous. It's not a trivial thing, yet the military either didn't understand the implications or refused to acknowledge the politics that prevented those who did understand from acting correctly and condemning the civilian or military leadership who caused the fiasco. You never improve without finding and acknowledging the source of a failure. People in charge want to be there; if they can't meet the challenge, they don't deserve to be there. That requires pinning the blame where it belongs.

You may have to sign up to read the article, but it is free and their articles are generally interesting.

www.military.com

Why Our Generals Can't Think

Having read Franklin Foer's account in the October issue of The Atlantic describing the disastrous evacuation of Afghanistan, I was struck by what it did not contain.
www.military.com www.military.com
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???

That was a very confusng post. Are you blaming the soldier? Or the Pentagon? Or both? Or a bit of bad luck for both?

I want to have this conversation because it is a fascinating video that I've had a chance to think more about in the past few days.
 
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Rasputin_Vol said:
???

That was a very confusng post. Are you blaming the soldier? Or the Pentagon? Or both? Or a bit of bad luck for both?

I want to have this conversation because it is a fascinating video that I've had a chance to think more about in the past few days.
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Both potentially because we don't really know all the facts, but somewhere either information and dissent over the plan were stuffed or nobody had the foresight to figure out it was a bad plan. The linked article specifically talks about the military education now required for officers moving into command positions. It points out that the course itself is less about military matters such as tactics and what happens on the battlefield and more about other issues.

A misguided attempt to reform professional military education (JPME) in the 1980s led by the late Ike Skelton and other military reformers in Congress mandated that masters-level degrees be granted at all command and staff colleges, as well as a required study in "jointness." This forced all the military midlevel colleges to make room in their courses of study to accommodate the requirements of civilian academia to grant an advanced degree. What got lost in the mix was the serious study of the military profession that was formerly required.

Command and staff colleges had traditionally been the places where aspiring senior commanders really learned their trade as majors or lieutenant commanders. This used to include a serious study of military theory, history and staff planning. That is not currently the case.

Today, seminar groups are led by two instructors -- one a uniformed officer and the other an academic. There is generally no requirement that either be an expert in combined-arms combat on land, in the air, or on the sea. In some cases, they're simply not knowledgeable about the study of war.
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The author's comments specific to the Afghanistan withdrawal are:

Having read Franklin Foer's account in the October issue of The Atlantic describing the disastrous evacuation of Afghanistan, I was struck by what it did not contain. Nowhere in the months leading up to the withdrawal did a senior military leader question the choice of Kabul's Karzai International Airport over the more defensible Bagram military air base.

The military chain of command knew an evacuation was imminent for months, and the Kabul airport was even more vulnerable to attack than the disastrous French position at Dien Bien Phu during the first Vietnam war. Despite that, not a single general officer, beginning with the secretary of defense -- a retired general -- raised an objection to the State Department's choice of the Kabul Airport. One of two things happened here: Either they lacked the moral courage to speak up, or they did not know. In either case, I am convinced that the deplorable state of our military professional education system lies at the root of the problem.
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My point was that the withdrawal from Afghanistan is an example of either the military failing to execute a withdrawal correctly or the of the civilian leadership driving the military to perform the operation incorrectly, and if military leaders were unaware of the impending disaster they did not speak up. The why they didn't speak is the great concern. Was the problem not recognized; was objection to the plan stifled, or was no one willing to offer dissent?

My comment about having the tiger's tail is that it at least puts you at the end of the tiger opposite the teeth while you've been enraging the tiger. When you turn lose (or try to exit a hostile situation), you no longer have even marginal control of the situation.

The short intro to the author of the article is

Gary Anderson is a retired Marine Corps officer who served as a special adviser to the deputy secretary of defense and as a civilian adviser in Iraq and Afghanistan. He lectures on Alternative Analysis at the George Washington University's Elliott School of International Affairs.
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He adds this bit of personal commentary about the general state of affairs in the military higher echelon

When I was an officer candidate, our staff platoon commander, Lt. James Webb -- a highly decorated combat veteran, encouraged us to read and write about our profession and not become ignorant "lifers." He went on to become secretary of the Navy and a U.S. senator. Today, far too many ignorant lifers are senior flag officers.
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The James Webb he mentions is an excellent author of several books worth reading. Webb is a Naval Academy grad, was a VA senator, and Secretary of the Navy. He was awarded the Navy Cross (just beneath the Medal of Honor), the Silver Star, and the Bronze Star) ... unlike Lurch, he earned them. Even though he is a dem, you might be surprised that hog and I would both have voted for him if he ran for President.
 
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Surprised the percentage unwilling to fight for America is not higher. Over one-half are worthless moochers that pay no income tax with no skin in the game and the rest are either tired of carrying the trash or no longer willing to fight for a communist country.

www.newsweek.com

Americans don't want to fight for their country anymore

The military is struggling to recruit, amid an apparent disconnect with the younger generation. But it is a complex picture.
www.newsweek.com www.newsweek.com
 
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The Navy finally rolled its P-8 U Boat out of the water ... somewhat ending the Poseidon Adventure - now come the millions for repairs. As an engineer, I can understand these things take time to plan and get equipment in place; but the length of time required for this seems absurd. The plane was sitting just off the end of the runway on coral. The answer was always going to be airbags and equipment to pull it onto the runway which essentially ends at water's edge. Seems like there was a lot of unnecessary time sitting in saltwater increasing the damage.


P8-Hawaii-Crash.jpg
 
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AM64 said:
The Navy finally rolled its P-8 U Boat out of the water ... somewhat ending the Poseidon Adventure - now come the millions for repairs. As an engineer, I can understand these things take time to plan and get equipment in place; but the length of time required for this seems absurd. The plane was sitting just off the end of the runway on coral. The answer was always going to be airbags and equipment to pull it onto the runway which essentially ends at water's edge. Seems like there was a lot of unnecessary time sitting in saltwater increasing the damage.


View attachment 599923
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Been in salt water so it's a scrap job, no repairing that boat anchor.
 
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hog88 said:
Been in salt water so it's a scrap job, no repairing that boat anchor.
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The article says the next stop is the wash rack and that they intend to refurbish it. Makes no sense to have left it in the bay all this time. It wouldn't have been the first time an aircraft was floated on airbags, and the thing was sitting just off the end of the runway. Hard to imagine that some enterprising Seabees weren't all over that the next day.

How The Navy Got Its P-8A Poseidon Out Of The Water In Hawaii
 
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AM64 said:
The article says the next stop is the wash rack and that they intend to refurbish it. Makes no sense to have left it in the bay all this time. It wouldn't have been the first time an aircraft was floated on airbags, and the thing was sitting just off the end of the runway. Hard to imagine that some enterprising Seabees weren't all over that the next day.

How The Navy Got Its P-8A Poseidon Out Of The Water In Hawaii
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I guess the Navy could be stupid enough to attempt a repair, it will cost more repairing it than buying a new one.
 
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#1,218
hog88 said:
I guess the Navy could be stupid enough to attempt a repair, it will cost more repairing it than buying a new one.
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They claim it won't cost more, and in their defense Boeing does build the plane, so you know it's expensive. I can see the Navy spending millions and then declaring it isn't worth going on, though. Getting it out of the water and hosed down should have been a priority and done quickly; deciding if it can be salvaged at that point can be done without haste once the damage is mitigated. We've both had enough experience to know that the mitigation part is the crucial one - the rest is largely an insurance adjustor/accounting type game.
 
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You have to get in the country, get a green card (hold it 5 years), then start the application for citizenship process.

6-8 years, depending on multiple factors.

I’d be ok with something like:
- serve 3 years, honorably
- keep your nose clean another year out
- apply and get fast tracked
 
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AM64 said:
The Navy finally rolled its P-8 U Boat out of the water ... somewhat ending the Poseidon Adventure - now come the millions for repairs. As an engineer, I can understand these things take time to plan and get equipment in place; but the length of time required for this seems absurd. The plane was sitting just off the end of the runway on coral. The answer was always going to be airbags and equipment to pull it onto the runway which essentially ends at water's edge. Seems like there was a lot of unnecessary time sitting in saltwater increasing the damage.


View attachment 599923
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In this case, I'm going to give you one last attempt at giving you the "red pill" about your beloved military.

The United States military is a racket. The MIC is not mission driven or driven by winning conflicts or being efficient. It is driven by profits.
 
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