Ukraine Protests

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America and Ukraine: The threat to freedom | The Economist

What can Americans do with this conflict that it cannot win? The most useful thing, I think, is to use it to understand the nature of the threat to freedom we're seeing these days, in Ukraine and around the world. Viktor Yanukovich is a democratically elected president who has used his powers to eliminate liberal-rights safeguards and jail political opponents on dubious charges. He has reinforced his political position by building cronyistic relationships with powerful business figures. In this system the state creates economic rents and awards them to favoured business interests, who in turn buttress the state's political power, all while maintaining the trappings of democracy. In other words, Ukraine looks a lot like Russia or Egypt; more significantly, it looks like other states that are in the early stages of similar threats to liberal democracy, such as Turkey and Hungary. The enemy of liberal democracy today is more often kleptocracy, or "illiberal democracy" (as tiger-mom Amy Chua put it in her book "World on Fire"), than ideological totalitarianism. The threat is less obvious than in the days of single-party states and military dictators. But it ends up in the same place: economic stagnation, a corrupt elite of businessmen and politicians, censored media, and riot police shooting demonstrators.

I think the fate of whether or not the government survives or falls hinges largely on if Yanukovych can maintain the oligarch's support.
 
America and Ukraine: The threat to freedom | The Economist



I think the fate of whether or not the government survives or falls hinges largely on if Yanukovych can maintain the oligarch's support.

I would argue that this author's description of oligarchic or kleptocratic governments also sounds similar to the post-Civil War to turn of the century US govt.

But that's besides the point. The business interest here is something I really hadn't considered before your post. If the interests of extreme wealth are entrenched enough, you wonder if that will be the support the president needs to maintain his status and his suppression of dissent.
 
I'm not sure that Obama should do anything in this situation:

Obama under pressure to wield more than 'rhetoric' in Ukraine crisis | Fox News

Amid reports that possible sanctions may be on the fast track, White House spokesman Josh Earnest said Thursday that "a range of options is being actively considered at the White House."

But so far, the public face of the administration's policy toward Ukraine has consisted mostly of phone calls with foreign leaders and public statements. John Bolton, former ambassador to the United Nations, suggested Obama's stance to date is far too mild considering what's at stake.

Other than the thorn in Russia's side, there is nothing strategically at stake here so I'm not sure if we should be doing anything other than rhetoric and supporting the sanctions. And there really isn't much out of Congress about it from the normal channels begging for military intervention.

Think this one is worth sitting out for Americans in my opinion. And make contact with the new government when it's all said and done.
 
I'm not sure that Obama should do anything in this situation:

Obama under pressure to wield more than 'rhetoric' in Ukraine crisis | Fox News



Other than the thorn in Russia's side, there is nothing strategically at stake here so I'm not sure if we should be doing anything other than rhetoric and supporting the sanctions. And there really isn't much out of Congress about it from the normal channels begging for military intervention.

Think this one is worth sitting out for Americans in my opinion. And make contact with the new government when it's all said and done.

From a purely strategic (and not a humanitarian) standpoint, I think you're spot on. What's it to America if Russia maintains its Ukrainian puppet state? Hell, they already are a Russian puppet state. However, you also have to wonder how my nightmare powder keg situation would affect things, with nationalist movements throughout Russia, the Caucasus, Siberia, and the former Eastern bloc obviously drawing more scrutiny than if the situation remains isolated to Ukraine. It's probably not even worth talking about, because I don't think it happens, but just playing Devil's advocate.
 
From a purely strategic (and not a humanitarian) standpoint, I think you're spot on. What's it to America if Russia maintains its Ukrainian puppet state? Hell, they already are a Russian puppet state. However, you also have to wonder how my nightmare powder keg situation would affect things, with nationalist movements throughout Russia, the Caucasus, Siberia, and the former Eastern bloc obviously drawing more scrutiny than if the situation remains isolated to Ukraine. It's probably not even worth talking about, because I don't think it happens, but just playing Devil's advocate.

From a humanitarian standpoint, humanitarian assistance to both sides I could agree with.

From the other standpoint, any time you get involved in a civil war, you stand the chance of being on the losing side. And being involved in a civil war on Russia's border will be something they take notice of. I don't believe in getting involved in many civil wars that our political leadership wants us in. And right now, this one isn't that much different.
 
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Kiev, that's just crazy. The Healthy Ministry says 75 dead, 571 injured since the 18th.

Almost as bad as a weekend in Detroit.
 
Other than the thorn in Russia's side, there is nothing strategically at stake here so I'm not sure if we should be doing anything other than rhetoric and supporting the sanctions. And there really isn't much out of Congress about it from the normal channels begging for military intervention.

I disagree on the strategic importance. Not so much directly to America, but it is for Europe.

That said, if the situation really is spiraling out of control (I'm not sure how much the protestors reflect the views of the nation at large) then it's too late for sanctions to do much good. If the government feels threatened, sanctions aren't going to stop it from shooting.
 
Call it what you will but IMO it is an insurrection. The government of the Ukraine needs to study up on COIN theory and address the grievances of the opposition before the situation gets even worse.
 
This doesn't make any sense. The "protesters" want to actually join the EU... a failing institution? Seems like the US is destroying another country just for the sake of some kind of political/economic gain right here.

I'm full tin-foil hat right about now. Screw it. First Syria. Now this.
 
This doesn't make any sense. The "protesters" want to actually join the EU... a failing institution? Seems like the US is destroying another country just for the sake of some kind of political/economic gain right here.

I'm full tin-foil hat right about now. Screw it. First Syria. Now this.

Why don't you just do us all a favor and quit posting all together.

Me thinks you love your crown as VolNation's Official Dunce though. You and VolMav.
 
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This doesn't make any sense. The "protesters" want to actually join the EU... a failing institution? Seems like the US is destroying another country just for the sake of some kind of political/economic gain right here.

I'm full tin-foil hat right about now. Screw it. First Syria. Now this.

And who are we kidding? You are a complete troll. You have a North Korean lover woman as your avatar. Good lord, man. At least be in to some big titties or some big asses like any god-fearing American male!
 
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Unclear if all the opposition is going to settle for this agreement as long as Yanukovych remains in power.
 
For real?

Well, I was, but this "peace agreement" came just before I was going to leave, so canceled my ticket. Gotta keep an eye on the situation, if it changes, will have to just buy a new ticket. Already have the visa so it won't be a big deal.
 
Well, I was, but this "peace agreement" came just before I was going to leave, so canceled my ticket. Gotta keep an eye on the situation, if it changes, will have to just buy a new ticket. Already have the visa so it won't be a big deal.

What do you do over there?
 
Some updates:

* President Yanukovych has been impeached but refusing to step down. Calling it a coup and the opposition Nazis.
* Opposition leader, Yulia Tymoshenko, has also been freed from prison.
* Police have stopped guarding Presidential buildings and protesters are moving into them.
* Allies of Yanukovych have been attempting to enter Russia but being stopped at the border as has Yanukovych according to some reports.
* Apparently there are now whispers of separatism for the Russian leaning East to leave the Ukraine but nothing conclusive yet.

Ukrainian Russian-language website Versii.com reports that President Yanukovych is prepared to resign but is in Kharkiv with senior officials to discuss forming a separate government in the south-east and Crimea. Also considering asking Russia's President Putin to guarantee safety of those regions. He is with the head of his administration Andriy Kluev and ex-PM Mykola Azarov, Versii reports.

From the BBC
 
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I'm a conflict photographer.

* Apparently there are now whispers of separatism for the Russian leaning East to leave the Ukraine but nothing conclusive yet.

Sounds like there is still conflict.

Also,

Ukrainian rabbi tells Kiev's Jews to flee city - Jewish World NewsIsrael News - Haaretz Israeli News source

* President Yanukovych has been impeached but refusing to step down. Calling it a coup and the opposition Nazis.

That's a nice touch.

Why is Tymoshenko in a wheelchair? I saw a bit of her speech but no idea what she was saying because it was all in Ukrainian.
 
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Why is Tymoshenko in a wheelchair? I saw a bit of her speech but no idea what she was saying because it was all in Ukrainian.

I don't know about that either. Still sounds like a long way to go before this is over. Especially since the former President is now in the southeast rallying his supporters. Keeping a close eye on Russia starting tomorrow with the Olympics closing.
 
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