US To Consider Arming Ukrainian Forces

#79
#79
Velo Vol said:
They elected a new president. They elected a new parliament.

Who forced that?
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After a forced coup of course. I know you see this Velo...

Do you really think Maiden was a peoples choice? These were hired neo-nazi thugs. I blame Yany for being a girl in handling this..
 
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#81
#81
Rasputin_Vol said:
And likewise, the people of Crimea voted in a referendum to join Russia. Who forced that?
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Who's troops were occupying Crimea when that went down?

It's not the people who vote that count. It's the people who count the votes.
 
#82
#82
I think Russian apologists vastly overstate the U.S. role in the "coup."

But putting that aside, Ukrainian voters ratified the change in government in two nationwide elections, by a large margin.

If they want to change course in the future, so be it. But they don't need the help of Russian tanks to do so.
 
#83
#83
Grand Vol said:
Who's troops were occupying Crimea when that went down?

It's not the people who vote that count. It's the people who count the votes.
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There's news video of the referendum vote. The ballots were placed in clear boxes and you can clearly see that the vote passed with a huge majority. An argument could be made that the Tartars were discouraged from voting, but out of the people that did vote, it looked unanimous.
 
#84
#84
Velo Vol said:
I think Russian apologists vastly overstate the U.S. role in the "coup."

But putting that aside, Ukrainian voters ratified the change in government in two nationwide elections, by a large margin.

If they want to change course in the future, so be it. But they don't need the help of Russian tanks to do so.
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So voting in Poroschenko was legitimate, but the Crimea vote was not?!

Can't be both ways...
 
#86
#86
red butler said:
There's news video of the referendum vote. The ballots were placed in clear boxes and you can clearly see that the vote passed with a huge majority. An argument could be made that the Tartars were discouraged from voting, but out of the people that did vote, it looked unanimous.
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I still find that 97% figure hard to believe.

With as many Tartars and Ukrainians living in the Crimea, it shouldn't have been anywhere near that. If there was international oversight on the polls, I'd be inclined to agree with your position. But since it was under occupation (and no matter which way you paint it, they were under occupation) and no international groups send observers, I'll remain skeptical.
 
#87
#87
Pacer92 said:
So voting in Poroschenko was legitimate, but the Crimea vote was not?!
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The Crimea election wasn't held in a legitimate manner.

But that's beside the point. The war, with potential U.S. weapons, isn't being fought over Crimea. That's what's being debated now.
 
#89
#89
Grand Vol said:
I still find that 97% figure hard to believe.

With as many Tartars and Ukrainians living in the Crimea, it shouldn't have been anywhere near that. If there was international oversight on the polls, I'd be inclined to agree with your position. But since it was under occupation (and no matter which way you paint it, they were under occupation) and no international groups send observers, I'll remain skeptical.
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Would it have made it better if the vote was 60/40 in favor of joining Russia? Somehow, I don't think that would satisfy most of you, either.
 
#90
#90
Velo Vol said:
If they had a real election, I could see maybe 70-30.

97% is obviously bogus.
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70/30 is still a majority... so what are you crying about? The fact still remains that the majority of people in Crimea chose to join with Russia.
 
#92
#92
Whats amazing to me is that you have people on the one hand arguing and belly-aching not about the outcome or the winner of the referendum in Crimea, but about the margin of victory being too great one one hand. But yet, when it comes to the election that was held in Afghanistan last summer, we have serious doubts floating around about the actual outcome, margin of victory notwithstanding, and these same people will go along with the John Kerry/White House agreement about the outcome of the vote.

These people admit that the people of Crimea had enough votes to join Russia, they just want to argue that the win was too lopsided... like that really changes the outcome and the results in any way.
 
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#93
#93
Rasputin_Vol said:
These people admit that the people of Crimea had enough votes to join Russia, they just want to argue that the win was too lopsided... like that really changes the outcome and the results in any way.
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60/40 or 70/30 is way more plausible than 97%.

60/40 is easily believed. 97% is so ludicrous I don't even know why you're arguing about it except you live in a fantasy world.
 
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#94
#94
97% is Assad family, Saddam Hussein, Kim-jung Un nonsense. Clearly demonstrates rigged elections and a sham vote. Honestly, if they were going to be that silly about it, they might as well have done 99% or even 100%. On a referendum concerning whether or not either the Republican or the Democratic parties should be given dunce caps, you could hold the vote in either America's most conservative or liberal municipality and be hard-pressed to get a 97% vote against the opposing side.
 
#95
#95
Grand Vol said:
60/40 or 70/30 is way more plausible than 97%.

60/40 is easily believed. 97% is so ludicrous I don't even know why you're arguing about it except you live in a fantasy world.
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Again, what difference does it make if it was 60/40 or 97/3? The outcome is still the same.
 
#96
#96
Rasputin_Vol said:
70/30 is still a majority... so what are you crying about? The fact still remains that the majority of people in Crimea chose to join with Russia.
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This! Porky was voted in with less of a majority than this, yet it was legit! Go figure...
 
#97
#97
Pacer92 said:
This! Porky was voted in with less of a majority than this, yet it was legit! Go figure...
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They've basically tipped their hand as to why they disagree with the Crimea vote. They've openly admitted that the pro-secessionists would have had enough votes to win. They just want to split hairs and belly ache about the margin of victory... as if that changes diddly-squat.

They don't take into account that even here in America, you have demographic anomalies like African Americans that vote 90%+ for Democrats or the fact that we have a large amount of voter apathy here. Who is to say that the Tartars were not among the apathetic and really didn't care or see a difference one way or the other about leaving the Ukraine or staying?
 
#98
#98
If this was a fair vote in Crimea why wasn't the option of staying with Ukraine on the ballot?
 
#100
#100
Burhead said:
If this was a fair vote in Crimea why wasn't the option of staying with Ukraine on the ballot?
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Assuming what you are saying is correct, I have no idea. Now, allow me to assume that you are correct. Are you suggesting that if the option to stay with Ukraine was given, that the outcome (not the margin of victory) would be different?

If the outcome would have been the same, then what are you all complaining about?
 
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