USS destroyer sailing by chinese disputed islands

#478
#478
Rasputin_Vol said:
Crazy talk.
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One thing I've noticed in my many years on this planet is the folks on the left side of the aisle tend to be limp wristed and basically spineless when it comes to the defense of our country. People that have their heads buried in the sand forget that their butts are exposed for a kicking. I would never trust someone with those feelings towards our country to ever fight to defend it but I can guarantee you the day will come when you'll wish we had done so. Our so-called government leaders of today have sold out to the Chinese lock stock and barrel......the wrong thing to do with an enemy and China is indeed our greatest enemy.
 
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#479
#479
Tnslim1 said:
I wish Trump had put all of China's boomers on the ocean floor then turned China into a giant smoking crater. They initiated war on this country when they built and then turned loose the Covid killing several hundred thousand of our citizens and millions worldwide. The problem of China would then be solved.
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Why covid didn't turn the world against China has to be one of the greatest modern mysteries. Perhaps accountability suffers when the right (or wrong however you view it) people have dirty hands.
 
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#480
#480
Rasputin_Vol said:
So basically, you're saying that the Chinese are acting like the United States?
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We give away foreign aid like it's free money. When have we in recent history bothered to seize territory in return for what we give? Do we have a record of selling unpayable loans to corrupt politicians for things their country cannot afford and then seize assets after? Perhaps some of us need reminders on when and where?
 
#482
#482
Rasputin_Vol said:
It is perfectly fine since those atolls or sand bars or whatever they are belonged to China in the first place. Plus, that is a regional issue. No matter if you think it is right or wrong for China to do, that is not our issue.
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How exactly did remote spots of sand in the water off the coast of the Philippines and Vietnam belong to China in the first place? Could we see a deed?
 
#483
#483
AM64 said:
We give away foreign aid like it's free money. When have we in recent history bothered to seize territory in return for what we give? Do we have a record of selling unpayable loans to corrupt politicians for things their country cannot afford and then seize assets after? Perhaps some of us need reminders on when and where?
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Read "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". He goes into how he worked for a contractor (similar to Bechtel and Parsons) and went all around the world in the late 60s to the early 1980s doing the exact same thing China is doing, except with a far more aggressive kill squad that actually did overthrow govts and put countries into debt slavery.
 
#484
#484
Rasputin_Vol said:
Read "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". He goes into how he worked for a contractor (similar to Bechtel and Parsons) and went all around the world in the late 60s to the early 1980s doing the exact same thing China is doing, except with a far more aggressive kill squad that actually did overthrow govts and put countries into debt slavery.
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Not that sensationalism might help promote book sales.

Joe Biden's son helped China get control over vast cobalt mine in Africa: Report
 
#485
#485
AM64 said:
How exactly did remote spots of sand in the water off the coast of the Philippines and Vietnam belong to China in the first place? Could we see a deed?
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They were shown belonging to China not too long before the communists took over China from what I understand. But after that, The US and others helped other countries to make claims on these islands/atolls in an effort to frustrate the Chinese.
 
#487
#487
Rasputin_Vol said:
Read "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". He goes into how he worked for a contractor (similar to Bechtel and Parsons) and went all around the world in the late 60s to the early 1980s doing the exact same thing China is doing, except with a far more aggressive kill squad that actually did overthrow govts and put countries into debt slavery.
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He worked for Chas. T. Main and left before they were bought out by Parsons.
 
#488
#488
Rasputin_Vol said:
Yeah, everything in the book was sensationalized.
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It's interesting how I often agree with your opinion, but we are so divided on things like this. Every country has a checkered past, but by comparison we have a pretty decent record. Yes, we sought to get our hands on resources like in Africa; we were also in a "Cold War" with the Soviets. It was often the need to prevent Soviet control of resources and countries as much as any desire to have them for ourselves - probably far more - we've never really been a colonizer. Third world countries are generally pretty thuggish - you play the corrupt game of bribes and power or you go home; in war - even a cold war - when adversaries are fighting for resources that determine survival, going away empty handed isn't an option. Maybe our current problem is that we aren't willing to come to terms that we are in a cold war again - this time with China, and worse that we are financing their acquisitions.

It's apparent that I believe more in our good, that history makes policy different at different points in time, and that you can't judge the past by the world today; and you see that differently.
 
#489
#489
AM64 said:
It's interesting how I often agree with your opinion, but we are so divided on things like this. Every country has a checkered past
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I'm fully aware of that. But no other country does the posturing and grandstanding that we do with regards to our alleged freedoms and goodwill. I'm simply asking us to live up to the hype that we are pumping. But seems like many around here just want us to talk the talk, but not walk the walk.

AM64 said:
Third world countries are generally pretty thuggish - you play the corrupt game of bribes and power or you go home; in war - even a cold war - when adversaries are fighting for resources that determine survival, going away empty handed isn't an option.
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After WWII, this country has not been spreading freedom and goodwill across the globe in the majority of instances. Guatemala, Iran, Belgian Congo, Chile, Libya, Iraq, Syria, Ukraine... We behave like gangsters on the world stage. That isn't hate or hyperbole. That is a fact.

AM64 said:
Maybe our current problem is that we aren't willing to come to terms that we are in a cold war again - this time with China, and worse that we are financing their acquisitions.
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I agree with this. China is very problematic because we have so many people in power that seem to have ties to them. We are late up with Manchurian Candidates.

AM64 said:
It's apparent that I believe more in our good, that history makes policy different at different points in time, and that you can't judge the past by the world today; and you see that differently.
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But this isn't "the past". We are using the very same playbook in Ukraine that we have been using since the 1950s.
 
#490
#490
AM64 said:
How exactly did remote spots of sand in the water off the coast of the Philippines and Vietnam belong to China in the first place? Could we see a deed?
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Those are technically international waters.
And China literally built most of those islands. Regardless of those two other countries and their fishing needs.
 
#491
#491
Rasputin_Vol said:
I'm fully aware of that. But no other country does the posturing and grandstanding that we do with regards to our alleged freedoms and goodwill. I'm simply asking us to live up to the hype that we are pumping. But seems like many around here just want us to talk the talk, but not walk the walk.


After WWII, this country has not been spreading freedom and goodwill across the globe in the majority of instances. Guatemala, Iran, Belgian Congo, Chile, Libya, Iraq, Syria, Ukraine... We behave like gangsters on the world stage. That isn't hate or hyperbole. That is a fact.


I agree with this. China is very problematic because we have so many people in power that seem to have ties to them. We are late up with Manchurian Candidates.


But this isn't "the past". We are using the very same playbook in Ukraine that we have been using since the 1950s.
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While I agree the USA doesn't live up to its ideals (who does), I do think you are only pointing out the negatives and not the positives. You leave out all of the good the USA has done in the world such as the rebuilding of Europe via Marshall plan and support for democracies on that continent, South Korea and the good will there, the support of Democracies and our allies in the South Pacific, the funding and support that we have provided to Latin America and there are far more friends in Latin America than enemies in the USA.

I tell people 2020 is a classic example of USA patient. In face of all the rioting and problems, USA was very restraint (actually too restraint). Take any classic empire such as the Ottomans, Ancient Rome, the European Powers of the Absolute era, Babylon, Assyria, Ming China, the Mongols, etc. How would these nations have reacted? I can conclude that about 90% of them would resort to slaughtering whole-sale all of the rioters and would likely defend their police. Most of these past world powers see human beings as property of the state and believe that humans are expendable if they do not serve the state.

How would these nations react to our conflict with Afghanistan? I know if the Romans were in Afghanistan, you would likely see crucified Taliban all over the place and cities burnt to the ground with people chartered off as slaves.

The news only focuses on the bad as does your post. I see you defend Russia and don't call them a loose canon but how do you explain Putin constantly talking about his nuclear arsenal, conquering Crimea, running constantly flyby threats not just against USA but countries as small and harmless as Sweden, etc.
 
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#492
#492
volbound1700 said:
The news only focuses on the bad as does your post. I see you defend Russia and don't call them a loose canon but how do you explain Putin constantly talking about his nuclear arsenal, conquering Crimea, running constantly flyby threats not just against USA but countries as small and harmless as Sweden, etc.
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Why is stating the facts about Russia "defending" Russia?
And I've already spelled out in another post (maybe you missed it) how patient and restrained Russia has been over the last decade. Again, that isn't defending them, that is just stating fact. Calling them a loose cannon is hyperbole. And certainly going to the extreme of calling them or any other country with nuclear weapons a loose cannon is silly because we are the only country that has used nuclear weapons in war.
 
#493
#493
volbound1700 said:
While I agree the USA doesn't live up to its ideals (who does), I do think you are only pointing out the negatives and not the positives. You leave out all of the good the USA has done in the world such as the rebuilding of Europe via Marshall plan and support for democracies on that continent, South Korea and the good will there, the support of Democracies and our allies in the South Pacific, the funding and support that we have provided to Latin America and there are far more friends in Latin America than enemies in the USA.
.
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And I could just as easily say that there are far too many that are American sunshine pumpers.

And as far as Latin America goes, we've done far more damage than goodwill in the last 70+ years.
 
#496
#496
Honestly there is a lot of hypocrisy with our Monroe Doctrine...a whole freking Hemisphere. We have invaded Panama, incursions in Mexico, Cuba, Grenada and Nicaragua, drug wars in SA. Know I am forgetting many.
Now to the Spratleys it is somewhat different with unrealistic territorial waters claims, but big boys do bold things. Not always righteous but Realpolitik
 
#497
#497
Orangeburst said:
Honestly there is a lot of hypocrisy with our Monroe Doctrine...a whole freking Hemisphere. We have invaded Panama, incursions in Mexico, Cuba, Grenada and Nicaragua, drug wars in SA. Know I am forgetting many.
Now to the Spratleys it is somewhat different with unrealistic territorial waters claims, but big boys do bold things. Not always righteous but Realpolitik
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Too bad we abandoned the Monroe Doctrine that basically was aimed at keeping some European nations from colonization - or more to the point - further colonization of South America and the Caribbean before Russia got involved in Venezuela and China decided it wants all of South and Central America.

The S China Sea episode by China would almost equal dredging and building up an existing reef in the FL Keys and claiming that Cuba or Mexico or some other country owns it through some unexplained quirk of history.
 
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