Vaccine or not?

#20,177
#20,177
luthervol said:
Good point.....especially since it proves my point.
The Origins of Botulinum Toxin
Clostridium botulinum was first discovered by a Belgian scientist named Emile Pierre van Ermengem following a botulism outbreak in Belgium.10 By the 1920s, scientists at the University of California, San Francisco, first tried to isolate the botulinum toxin. However, it took 20 years before the botulinum toxin was finally isolated in crystalline form by Dr. Edward Schantz.


In the 1970s, scientists started using botulinum toxin to treat strabismus (i.e., crossed eyes).11 While testing this treatment on monkeys, researchers noticed that botulinum toxin reduced wrinkles in the glabella. The glabella is the skin between the eyebrows and above the nose.
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So you were waiting for a random poster to mention botox? I am not going back in the past to research the point you were trying to prove. Happy to help though!
 
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#20,178
#20,178
norrislakevol said:
You have to have some profit from healthcare if you want advances, else there is no incentive to do any new research.
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hog88 said:
I haven't seen anyone claim that. I've seen most people claim it is the primary motivator and profit is responsible for most advances in HC. Hell the biggest advancement in the history of HC was motivated by trying to reduce deaths of mothers and children at birth. There wasn't a dime to be made from that, heck the guy was branded a heretic.
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See the bolded above.
 
#20,180
#20,180
NurseGoodVol said:
What incentive do pioneers in medicine have to develop new therapies? None.
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The only incentive conceivable is financial? No.

Even if that were the case (it’s not) do financial incentives for development in medicine steer said developers toward the most beneficial innovations, or the most lucrative?
 
#20,182
#20,182
luthervol said:
I don't mind money being a motivator.
I despise it being the sole motivator and dislike it being the primary motivator.
There were those on here claiming that without a profit motive, nothing beneficial would be accomplished in healthcare - and that is simply absurd and shows a very narrow understanding.
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So you falsely assume it’s the only motivator and then get upset with your imaginary enemies?

Or do you truly know the motives of every board member of every company?
 
#20,184
#20,184
Vol8188 said:
So you falsely assume it’s the only motivator and then get upset with your imaginary enemies?

Or do you truly know the motives of every board member of every company?
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What in the hell are you talking about? Pick a better fight.
 
#20,186
#20,186
Vol8188 said:
The thing that has given us the best care in the world?

No thanks.
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So we sucked before 1973?
DYK: Before 1973, It Was Illegal in the U.S. to Profit Off Healthcare.
The downfall of the American health insurance system dates back to the Nixon presidency.

In 1973, Nixon, as a personal favor for his friend Edgar Kaiser, signed the Health Maintenance Organization Act which allowed hospitals, insurance companies, clinics and even doctors to function as for-profit entities.

These establishments were no longer the service organizations they were intended to be. The first insurance company to get a taste of federal subsidies was of course Kaiser-Permanente which just so happened to be chaired by Nixon’s friend.

I'm curious if that coincides with the beginning of exploding health care costs? hmmm
 
#20,187
#20,187
luthervol said:
So we sucked before 1973?
DYK: Before 1973, It Was Illegal in the U.S. to Profit Off Healthcare.
The downfall of the American health insurance system dates back to the Nixon presidency.

In 1973, Nixon, as a personal favor for his friend Edgar Kaiser, signed the Health Maintenance Organization Act which allowed hospitals, insurance companies, clinics and even doctors to function as for-profit entities.

These establishments were no longer the service organizations they were intended to be. The first insurance company to get a taste of federal subsidies was of course Kaiser-Permanente which just so happened to be chaired by Nixon’s friend.
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Let’s be clear on what you just said to me. You believe doctors did not earn a profit before 1973? That they were all just volunteers and/or criminals?
 
#20,188
#20,188
Vol8188 said:
Let’s be clear on what you just said to me. You believe doctors did not earn a profit before 1973? That they were all just volunteers and/or criminals?
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You are not clear on anything as far as I can tell.
Of course doctor's were well paid - as they should be.
 
#20,189
#20,189
luthervol said:
So we sucked before 1973?
DYK: Before 1973, It Was Illegal in the U.S. to Profit Off Healthcare.
The downfall of the American health insurance system dates back to the Nixon presidency.

In 1973, Nixon, as a personal favor for his friend Edgar Kaiser, signed the Health Maintenance Organization Act which allowed hospitals, insurance companies, clinics and even doctors to function as for-profit entities.

These establishments were no longer the service organizations they were intended to be. The first insurance company to get a taste of federal subsidies was of course Kaiser-Permanente which just so happened to be chaired by Nixon’s friend.

I'm curious if that coincides with the beginning of exploding health care costs? hmmm
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You will believe anything.Your link is absolutely false.

PolitiFact - No, it was not illegal to profit off U.S. healthcare before a Nixon-era law

Hoffman added, "There was clearly profit in health care — and profit motive — before 1973."
Some U.S. health care stakeholders — from insurers to hospital chains — have operated for profit since the 1950s and 1960s — prior to the act’s passage. Others have done so for their entire existence, said Katherine Hempstead, a senior advisor at the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.
"The drug and device industries have always been for profit," she said.
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#20,190
#20,190
luthervol said:
You are not clear on anything as far as I can tell.
Of course doctor's were well paid - as they should be.
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Yet you just clearly stated they were not profiting. What about the pharmacies and pharmaceutical companies making their cure alls containing cocaine, amphetamine, etc? Also not “profiting”.

Maybe you should reconsider your stance that before 1973 people weren’t profiting on healthcare. It’s one of the most ignorant stances I’ve seen in awhile

Edit: for clarification you’re trying to hide behind an also wrong argument of “pay” vs “profit”. Doctors were not only paid, but ran their own practices were they made “profit”.
 
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#20,191
#20,191
#20,192
#20,192
Vol8188 said:
Yet you just clearly stated they were not profiting. What about the pharmacies and pharmaceutical companies making their cure alls containing cocaine, amphetamine, etc? Also not “profiting”.

Maybe you should reconsider your stance that before 1973 people weren’t profiting on healthcare. It’s one of the most ignorant stances I’ve seen in awhile

Edit: for clarification you’re trying to hide behind an also wrong argument of “pay” vs “profit”. Doctors were not only paid, but ran their own practices were they made “profit”.
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How health insurance changed from protecting patients to seeking profit
History of Hospitals
 
#20,193
#20,193
luthervol said:
That's what I get for posting the first link that came up.
So some went all the way back to the 50's or 60''s? My point is blown away.
How health insurance changed from protecting patients to seeking profit
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The issue was you being gullible enough to believe doctors didn’t profit before the 70s. That alone should’ve been enough to raise flags.

Seems we were all talking about the profit motive that leads to medical innovation. Pharmaceutical and medical device companies. You know, the things that have been around since the 1800s at a minimum. Now you’re trying to move the goal post to insurance, and no one is really sure why other than refusal to admit you’re wrong.
 
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#20,195
#20,195
luthervol said:
Undoubtedly, but I believe that no one who actually looks into medical advances throughout history will conclude that profit was the number one motivator.........not even close.
The fact that we have a society today where so many are reluctant to even entertain the fact that there are motivators beyond money says it all.
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That’s because money has ruined it all. Look at how fast the “vaccine” was rushed through. You think that wasn’t propelled by money? Also let’s take Pfizer, Moderna and J&J. You think they created these “vaccines” to help everyone? These companies already were multi billion dollar companies. I guess the many billions they knew they would make had NOTHING to do with their research. Come on Luther you are smarter than this.
 
#20,196
#20,196
Vol8188 said:
The issue was you being gullible enough to believe doctors didn’t profit before the 70s. That alone should’ve been enough to raise flags.

Seems we were all talking about the profit motive that leads to medical innovation. Pharmaceutical and medical device companies. You know, the things that have been around since the 1800s at a minimum. Now you’re trying to move the goal post to insurance, and no one is really sure why other than refusal to admit you’re wrong.
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I'm keeping the goal post firmly planted where it was.
My point from the beginning was that most breakthroughs in the history of medicine have not been profit based.
It is not nor should it be the primary motivator.
 
#20,198
#20,198
luthervol said:
I'm keeping the goal post firmly planted where it was.
My point from the beginning was that most breakthroughs in the history of medicine have not been profit based.
It is not nor should it be the primary motivator.
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I think it’s important to differentiate the potential motivation of the real clinical researchers that do the work of making medical advancements and the MBAs who hang off their coattails.
 
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#20,199
#20,199
luthervol said:
I'm keeping the goal post firmly planted where it was.
My point from the beginning was that most breakthroughs in the history of medicine have not been profit based.
It is not nor should it be the primary motivator.
Click to expand...

Which breakthroughs in medicine haven’t resulted in huge profits?
 
#20,200
#20,200
luthervol said:
I'm keeping the goal post firmly planted where it was.
My point from the beginning was that most breakthroughs in the history of medicine have not been profit based.
It is not nor should it be the primary motivator.
Click to expand...

So you believe most breakthroughs in healthcare came from health insurance?

If not, then health insurance has 0 to do with what we are talking about
 
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