VN, help! Manning vs. Brady (long but worth it)

[JMSqb11]

OK. So, as Tennessee fans and football fans in general, we here all know that Peyton is 10x the QB than that of Tom Brady. I know it, you know it, and anybody who has eyes that has somehow not been brainwashed by the media knows it. So there you go. Simple. Right? WRONG!

I need your help VN. My best friend is from Beantown and is a huge NE Patriots fan. We talk on a daily basis, either on the phone, over text, and occasionally in person at the sports bar or over a game of cards (we now live 500 miles away.) For fun, we debate about anything and everything. I consider us both to be very witty and very good debaters. We debate anything from the superiority of the South (or North, if you are arguing for the wrong side), MJ vs. LBJ, college football vs NFL football, beer superiority, car brands, iPhone vs android, and so on and so on. I win sometimes, he wins sometimes, and it's all in a day's work.

But there is one topic that summons so much passion from both he and myself that any of the aforementioned topics of friendly debate inevitably almost always gives way to. Like any other topic is just the appetizer for what we both know is coming: tom brady vs. Mr. Peyton Manning.

The hard facts are this in a nutshell:
Peyton has way better overall career stats when you include the regular season.
Brady crushes Peyton in arguably the most important set of stats: postseason and Super Bowl rings

Although I tend to agree that in almost any other situation, a player's greatness can be summed up by postseason performance, I feel adamantly that the PM v TB competition is a bit of an anomaly. Yes, TB has 3 rings to PM's 1. Yes, TB has a much better playoff record than PM. BUT PEYTON MANNING IS 1Ox THE QB THAT TOM BRADY IS!

So you can imagine my frustration when inevitably this is thrown in my face. It has been his trump card for the entire 4 years we've known each other. I don't mind losing the occasional debate to my Mick best friend from Boston, MA. I DO mind consistently finding myself without any kind of significant comeback to his postseason statistics argument.

I've tried almost everything to beat him at this debate. Everything from Spygate to TB = system quarterback to coaching edges, to teammates. Even the "intangibles" argument bites me in the rear. "Winning in the playoffs, reaching deep down when it really matters and finding a way to grind out the win when it's do or die is not an intangible?"

So I know most of you on here are on my side with this one. If not, you, like my Beantown friend, are wrong. And not a VFL IMO. And a nega-vol. Also, I know most of you on here have found yourselves in this very same position at some time or the other. Maybe you are struggling with the same things I am.

So my plea is this VN. HELP! Give me some fool-proof ammunition that I can bring to the table and help me turn the tides on this cocky Yankee! It would help me out tremendously, and maybe this thread could even possibly be a go-to, upon which any Vol fan faced with the encounter of a ridiculous tom brady fan can call.

How do you win the PM vs. tb argument? Help!!!

Go Vols, GBO, Butch "gets it" BEAT SOUTH ALABAMA BY A HUNNERT!

:loco:

Mods, please let this thread remain in the football forum. Freak himself has admitted that he hasn't made up his mind on what to do with former Vols threads. I usually post in this forum, so I would greatly appreciate the feedback of those I'm used to shooting the chat with :hi:

Peyton is 10x more talented that Brady
Brady is 10x more clutch than Peyton.

Like you stated, Manning kills the stats and records. However, stats and records don't mean much when comparing those to rings. If it were me, I would take someone who gets rings. Players tend to get remembered longer than record getters.

 

[cbbowlingmd]

Didn't read, but Peyton wins....hands down.

 

[OldGrandad]

Yes, TB has 3 rings to PM's 1. Yes, TB has a much better playoff record than PM. BUT PEYTON MANNING IS 1Ox THE QB THAT TOM BRADY IS!

The true test is who has the most tv commercials. Manning has multiples of 10x the number of commercials than Brady. Nobody would even recognize Brady's face out of uniform but Peyton's face pops up everytime you order a Papa John's. :thumbsup:

End of discussion. eace2:

 

[JMSqb11]

The true test is who has the most tv commercials. Manning has multiples of 10x the number of commercials than Brady. Nobody would even recognize Brady's face out of uniform but Peyton's face pops up everytime you order a Papa John's. :thumbsup:

End of discussion. eace2:

One could say that if you are winning rings, WTF does it matter if you do commercials or not? And yes, Manning is 100x more talented. But talent alone doesn't consistently win games. Unless its a Dooley coached team vs Troy.

 

[spazzyvol]

You are only as good as your team around you. Peyton had less talent around him for more years than Brady. That's why Brady has more rings, and a better post season record. He had more opportunity.

Do you really think their stats would be the same if they switched teams? Peyton with the patriots would've been the most dominant franchise in history.

 

[JMSqb11]

You are only as good as your team around you. Peyton had less talent around him for more years than Brady. That's why Brady has more rings, and a better post season record. He had more opportunity.

Do you really think their stats would be the same if they switched teams? Peyton with the patriots would've been the most dominant franchise in history.

I disagree. The years Brady won, name one pro bowler on offense around him. He didn't have a lot of superstars around him. It was more of him and Bill doing it. I definitely think a WR Core of Wayne, Harrison, Stokley, and Clark at TE is way better than any WR/TE that Brady ever had.

 

[TNsnyper20]

Manning had more letters in his name than Brady. And the wears 18 which is higher than 12. Finally he is physically higher up than Tom now that he's in Denver. End argument.

 

[Biopsyman]

The true test is who has the most tv commercials. Manning has multiples of 10x the number of commercials than Brady. Nobody would even recognize Brady's face out of uniform but Peyton's face pops up everytime you order a Papa John's. :thumbsup:

End of discussion.a

 

[eternal]

After the Pats got caught cheating
How many rings?
W/L record
Hows those stats compare

 

[Vercingetorix]

Edgerrin James ran for more than 1200 yards 5 of his 7 years with Manning. 4 of those years he ran for more than 1500 yards. That's hardly a change-up. He's only the #11 all time rushing rb in NFL history.

His team used James as a changeup. When the game was on the line in the playoffs, it was always Manning back there, having to make plays. And the defenses knew it.

 

[Hacksaw]

Most overrated QB ever! If you would have read what I was responding to you would have grasped my post.

LOL! Your reasoning is so flawed that you're actually undermining it with posts like this. The same arguments that are made for Montana can also be made for Aikman. Multiple SB wins, great playoff record and the ever-subjective eye test. Throw out the stats, except for those you can cherry-pick to support your argument.

Montana and Aikman were both good QBs who played on great teams. You could put a lot of good QBs on those teams and they would have had similar success.

 

[Vercingetorix]

(Moving this discussion to the NFL forum ahead of the gameday new thread onslaught.)

 

[Hacksaw]

If Peyton wins a SB with Denver, he will cement his place as the greatest QB ever. It will be a first.

But he'd probably better win 2 more, or we'll never hear the end from the fans of Montana, Aikman, Bradshaw, etc.

 

[TheDeeble]

His team used James as a changeup. When the game was on the line in the playoffs, it was always Manning back there, having to make plays. And the defenses knew it.

Then Jay Graham and and Jamal Lewis were nothing more than change-up college rbs at Tennessee.

Fact is James was a great rb. If the coach was too stupid to be obvious about giving Manning the ball that's his problem. It wasn't due to lack of a good rb.

 

[Other_Guy]

One could say that if you are winning rings, WTF does it matter if you do commercials or not? And yes, Manning is 100x more talented. But talent alone doesn't consistently win games. Unless its a Dooley coached team vs Troy.

Missed humor class? Lol

 

[butchna]

If the 2006 Colts' defense doesn't step up, the Colts don't win that Super Bowl. Manning was pretty average looking that entire playoff run.

He was a real dog against the Patriots :no:

 

[butchna]

LOL! Your reasoning is so flawed that you're actually undermining it with posts like this. The same arguments that are made for Montana can also be made for Aikman. Multiple SB wins, great playoff record and the ever-subjective eye test. Throw out the stats, except for those you can cherry-pick to support your argument.

Montana and Aikman were both good QBs who played on great teams. You could put a lot of good QBs on those teams and they would have had similar success.

Can't disagree more with you on Montana...his first Super Bowl Niners squad weren't juggernauts...they were most likely a year or two ahead of schedule because of him...the second team dismantled Miami as an underdog. Eli fans might argue, but he cemented himself as the epitome of clutch in the "John Candy" classic...by the time he wrapped up his championship resume, he was setting new standards of efficiency and production at the position...not "game managing"...greatest ever..hands down. The case for Aikman is more hazy...he was the field general of the last great pre-salary cap dynasty. That Cowboys monster could have won a Super Bowl with Steve Buerlein...But would they have won three? I've always maintained that there are two levels of HOF QB's....the Joe Montana, John Elway, Dan Marino and Brett Favre level...then the Troy Aikman, Bart Starr and Bob Griese level....bail...FOOTBALL TIME IN TENNESSEE!!! :superman::td:

 

[Vercingetorix]

Then Jay Graham and and Jamal Lewis were nothing more than change-up college rbs at Tennessee.

Fact is James was a great rb. If the coach was too stupid to be obvious about giving Manning the ball that's his problem. It wasn't due to lack of a good rb.

It barely mattered how good James was. The Colts were a one-dimensional team most of the time, especially in the playoffs, and it killed them. Some of that's on Manning, obviously, but it has to mostly fall on his largely invisible string of coaches.

 

[n_huffhines]

The most damning criticism of Brady is that he has not won a SB in his prime. He won SBs when he was more of a game manager and had great teams.

The best thing you can say in Manning's favor is Colts lose Manning and win 2 games. Patriots lose Brady and win 11. Manning's teams always over-achieved in the regular season. This makes him seem like a playoff choker, but in many seasons he had no business being a top seed.

I remember reading an article (I wish I could find it) but it stated that based on point differential you can pretty safely estimate what you expect a team's record to be. They looked at all the greats to see if they overachieved in this regard. At the time Manning had won more games than expected in like 8 seasons (this was probably 2009) and the closest to him on that was Elway with 5 seasons. Montana like 4 seasons. The author concluded that Manning gives you the best chance of winning close games.

 

[TheDeeble]

It barely mattered how good James was. The Colts were a one-dimensional team most of the time, especially in the playoffs, and it killed them. Some of that's on Manning, obviously, but it has to mostly fall on his largely invisible string of coaches.

So now it's the coaches and not his "change-up" rb?

I just don't agree with all the excuse making for Manning. The one thing that can be said is the Colts defense wasn't good. Outside of that he had all the tools and weapons needed to win.

 

[n_huffhines]

If the 2006 Colts' defense doesn't step up, the Colts don't win that Super Bowl. Manning was pretty average looking that entire playoff run.

Average? Yeah, just the biggest comeback in AFCCG history is all. He wasn't great against the Chiefs, but then he faced the 3 of the best Ds in the league and led his team to 27 ppg against them. Those teams surrendered an average of 14.4 ppg, so he pretty much doubled up on them.

People want to see 300 yards, 2 TDs, and 0 picks in a playoff game, but he's done that and lost. Why criticize him when he doesn't have great stats but led the offense to very productive results?

 

[BadJerry20]

The most damning criticism of Brady is that he has not won a SB in his prime. He won SBs when he was more of a game manager and had great teams.

The best thing you can say in Manning's favor is Colts lose Manning and win 2 games. Patriots lose Brady and win 11. Manning's teams always over-achieved in the regular season. This makes him seem like a playoff choker, but in many seasons he had no business being a top seed.

I remember reading an article (I wish I could find it) but it stated that based on point differential you can pretty safely estimate what you expect a team's record to be. They looked at all the greats to see if they overachieved in this regard. At the time Manning had won more games than expected in like 8 seasons (this was probably 2009) and the closest to him on that was Elway with 5 seasons. Montana like 4 seasons. The author concluded that Manning gives you the best chance of winning close games.

If it's a close game it's Montana





Then there is everyone else.

 

[n_huffhines]

Not really. Montana was great, but he is overrated. In San Francisco he won SBs and only played in 6 close playoff games (winning margin 7 or less). He was 3-3 in those games.

Most people don't remember this, but Montana had some TERRIBLE playoff results during his prime. In '85 and '87 his teams only put up 3 points in the opening rounds of the playoffs. If Manning did that during his prime all you would ever hear is choker.

 

[Crew]

Peyton is 2x more talented than Brady
Brady is 3x more clutch than Peyton.

:yes:

 

[Hacksaw]

If it's a close game it's Montana





Then there is everyone else.

There is only one QB in NFL history who has led his team to five consecutive 4th quarter comeback wins. Guess who it is? Hint: It's NOT Joe Montana.

Only one NFL QB in history has had 7 fourth quarter comeback wins in one season. Again, it's NOT Joe Montana.

Joe Montana is 5th all-time in 4th quarter comeback wins. When the chips were down and the game was on the line, he did it 31 times. Guess who is #1 all-time? Hint: He's done it 10 more times than Montana did and he's still playing.