VN, help! Manning vs. Brady (long but worth it)

#177
#177
n_huffhines said:
Brady's team is depleted. Can't believe they are 4-0. I gotta respect him for that. It's easy to forgive a fumble like that, especially when they win. Remember when he threw a pick to lose against the Chargers, but the safety fumbled it instead of taking a knee? Yeah, things just seem to work out for Brady. The two exceptions are the improbable 2006 AFFCG comeback and the game a few years back where the Pats went for it on 4th and inches on their own 30 against the Colts.
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What he is doing right now with the weapons or lack there of is impressive. You forgot the Tyree catch, that was pretty improbable.
 
#178
#178
VolsSportsFan said:
They can quote all the stats they want to, the NFL historians will remember him as the greatest regular season QB ever and an average postseason one.

And if anyone believes otherwise, take off your orange colored glasses.
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Dude I'm on the same side you are, but you are fighting a losing battle. Most Tennessee fans are too emotionally invested to look objectively. Historians be damned.
 
#179
#179
Do you guys also believe that Rocky Marciano is the greatest heavyweight ever?

LOL

Yeah, my opinion is all about emotion. I took the time -- I'm embarrassed to admit how much time -- to do the research and post the statistics and the factual information so that my opinion would NOT simply be dismissed as some sort of bias in favor of a former Vol. And then you guys conveniently dismiss my opinions anyway. You don't bother to do any work to gather facts and stats that support your views. You just parrot what you've heard other people say: Joe Montana is the best because he had some great playoff performances while playing for the dominant team of his era.

Okay, so what happens if Peyton wins another SB this year? I want to know where you guys stand. How about if he wins 2 more? This year and next? Then what will you say?
 
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#180
#180
Hacksaw said:
Do you guys also believe that Rocky Marciano is the greatest heavyweight ever?

LOL

Yeah, my opinion is all about emotion. I took the time -- I'm embarrassed to admit how much time -- to do the research and post the statistics and the factual information so that my opinion would NOT simply be dismissed as some sort of bias in favor of a former Vol. And then you guys conveniently dismiss my opinions anyway. You don't bother to do any work to gather facts and stats that support your views. You just parrot what you've heard other people say: Joe Montana is the best because he had some great playoff performances while playing for the dominant team of his era.

Okay, so what happens if Peyton wins another SB this year? I want to know where you guys stand. How about if he wins 2 more? This year and next? Then what will you say?
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Nobody thinks Marciano is the greatest.

Your opinion is that stats=the greatest, my opinion is not the same as yours. PM is the greatest regular season QB ever. Joe is the GOAT imo. I've stated why, you are not going to waver and neither am I. Honestly I don't care enough to do a ton of research, cause I'm not emotionally invested in this. Of all the QBs I've seen Joe is the greatest to me. If I had to win the Super Bowl with one QB it's Joe. His team aside, his Super Bowl performances are unmatched by anyone in the history of the NFL. To me that is greatness, it's why MJ is widely considered the greatest basketball player. If PM wins a couple and balls out in the SB I'll revisit this topic, but will you if he flops again in the playoffs? I doubt it, actually here comes the he doesn't flop response. Also I hate the what if game. Lol I respect your, stats=greatness opinion but I don't share it. Because by that logic you do.consider Marciano the GOAT, and that's just flat out wrong. :)
 
#182
#182
People act like Manning is an utter failure in the playoffs. He's won a SB. He's been to 2. He's overachieved in the regular season and it's actually hurt his public perception cause people expected the Colts to do better in the playoffs, when they probably shouldn't have.

Plug in any other QB and the Colts end up with 0 SB appearances, IMO.
 
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#183
#183
Well, I hate that I have to post so many stats. But honestly, how else are we supposed to quantify what these guys have done on the field?

You say, "His team aside..." as if you can separate a single player from a team when you're talking about wins and losses. With all due respect, I just do not think that is an intellectually defensible argument. Is football a team game? If you say yes, then you can't make an argument that starts by putting his team aside. Were Jeff Hostetler and Mark Rypien better QBs than Fran Tarkenton and Dan Marino? If I accept your premise, then there's only one possible answer. And that answer makes no sense.

I am old enough to have watched Joe Montana. I accept that he is one of the greatest QBs to ever play the game. But Peyton Manning is on a whole other level. Some day I believe this will be accepted by everyone as an incontrovertible fact. But we're not there yet. It took a lot of people some time before they let go of Rocky Marciano, too.

Peyton Manning is the Muhammad Ali of football. He will eventually win everyone over.
 
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#185
#185
Hacksaw said:
Well, I hate that I have to post so many stats. But honestly, how else are we supposed to quantify what these guys have done on the field?

You say, "His team aside..." as if you can separate a single player from a team when you're talking about wins and losses. With all due respect, I just do not think that is an intellectually defensible argument. Is football a team game? If you say yes, then you can't make an argument that starts by putting his team aside. Were Jeff Hostetler and Mark Rypien better QBs than Fran Tarkenton and Dan Marino? If I accept your premise, then there's only one possible answer. And that answer makes no sense.

I am old enough to have watched Joe Montana. I accept that he is one of the greatest QBs to ever play the game. But Peyton Manning is on a whole other level. Some day I believe this will be accepted by everyone as an incontrovertible fact. But we're not there yet. It took a lot of people some time before they let go of Rocky Marciano, too.

Peyton Manning is the Muhammad Ali of football. He will eventually win everyone over.
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You keep saying Montana had the best team of the decade. My point in saying his team aside is, 68% 11-0 td-int 127 passer rating 3 SB MVPs in 4 appearances. That is ridiculous on that stage, cause that was him being perfect on the biggest stage. Your argument has been PMs regular stats and MVPs, mine has been Joe Super Bowl stats and MVPs. Which is more impressive. Also once again for the thousandth time because you are not listening I AM NOT ARGUING SUPER BOWL VICTORIES! Check every post I've made in here that has never been my argument, it has been his performances! It's funny cause PMs regular season stats and wins are all him, his post season failures are all his team. Makes perfect sense. If PM was Ali he would found a way to beat someone besides Rex Grossman in the SB.
 
#186
#186
n_huffhines said:
People act like Manning is an utter failure in the playoffs. He's won a SB. He's been to 2. He's overachieved in the regular season and it's actually hurt his public perception cause people expected the Colts to do better in the playoffs, when they probably shouldn't have.

Plug in any other QB and the Colts end up with 0 SB appearances, IMO.
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So again all the winning is Peyton and all the losing is his team. Or does he simply beat lesser competition then struggle when he faces the big dogs?
 
#187
#187
Btw the only people that believed Marciano was the greatest ever over Joe Louis or Sugar Ray Robinson at the time, were white people still stuck in an ignorant mindset.
 
#188
#188
Hacksaw, you saw we're "parroting" what others say; yes, what the prevailing thinking of people far more experienced and learned than you say. You can choose to disagree, that's your right, but stop acting like everyone is crazy to say Montana is the GOAT.
 
#189
#189
VolsSportsFan said:
Hacksaw, you saw we're "parroting" what others say; yes, what the prevailing thinking of people far more experienced and learned than you say. You can choose to disagree, that's your right, but stop acting like everyone is crazy to say Montana is the GOAT.
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They're not crazy. They're just lazy. It's easy to look at Montana's SB wins and say he's the best based solely on that.

I think that most of them simply underestimate what a huge advantage it is for a QB to have a great OL that not only gives great pass protection, but also executes blocking schemes to near perfection, opening holes for running backs who not only contribute to raw offensive production (in the form of rushing yardage), but also make opposing defenses more vulnerable to the pass by forcing them to respect the run.

They seem to hugely undervalue the significance of a defense that held opposing teams to an average of 17 points less than the Colts defenses did in their playoff games with Peyton at QB. It's like, oh yeah...the 49'ers did have a great defense, but Joe! Oh, Joe!

Yes, Montana had great playoff performances. But he never had the pressure of feeling like it was all up to him to put the team on his shoulders. He never had to worry that if he didn't make it happen, it wasn't going to happen. That goes a looong way towards explaining how he was able to have some of those great performances. It's totally different when you don't have that great team around you. Joe never had to prove himself under those circumstances.
 
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#190
#190
A serious question for everyone. Mainly to try and kill Joe vs Peyton cause it's obvious nobody is changing their stance.

What Peyton is doing right now is seriously ridiculous, and winning. But he has 2 maybe 3 guys that will make the pro bowl that he is throwing to.

Brady is putting up fairly average numbers, but winning. He has guys that might not make a pro bowl team if we just took AFC West teams.

So honestly, which do you find more impressive? I'm pretty torn, Peyton is a video game right now, like almost silly numbers. But Brady is throwing to Huff and I, and putting up decent numbers.
 
#191
#191
Hacksaw said:
They're not crazy. They're just lazy. It's easy to look at Montana's SB wins and say he's the best based solely on that.

I think that most of them simply underestimate what a huge advantage it is for a QB to have a great OL that not only gives great pass protection, but also executes blocking schemes to near perfection, opening holes for running backs who not only contribute to raw offensive production (in the form of rushing yardage), but also make opposing defenses more vulnerable to the pass by forcing them to respect the run.

They seem to hugely undervalue the significance of a defense that held opposing teams to an average of 17 points less than the Colts defenses did in their playoff games with Peyton at QB. It's like, oh yeah...the 49'ers did have a great defense, but Joe! Oh, Joe!

Yes, Montana had great playoff performances. But he never had the pressure of feeling like it was all up to him to put the team on his shoulders. He never had to worry that if he didn't make it happen, it wasn't going to happen. That goes a looong way towards explaining how he was able to have some of those great performances. It's totally different when you don't have that great team around you. Joe never had to prove himself under those circumstances.
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Ummm he drove them 92 yards to win the Super Bowl...if that isn't the ultimate pressure and putting a team on your shoulders I'm not sure what is. But who cares about facts right? I'm actually thinking you didn't watch Joe much and are just picking stats.
 
#192
#192
Someone with 2 of the greats moments in football history, "the catch" and "the drive" never faced pressure in the playoffs. Lol Seriously that was funny.
 
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#193
#193
Good thing Dwight Clark wasn't 1 inch shorter, huh? Otherwise, Joe would only have 3 SB rings.

But not everything needs to be measured by the skin of a fingernail. Take, for instance, all of those stats you guys are trying so hard to dismiss or ignore. Do you realize just how big the margins are?

Montana was 38 when he retired. Peyton is 37 now.

Peyton has thrown for 20,000 more yards than Montana did in his career. 20,000! That's 200 football field-lengths of raw offensive production. And Peyton is still playing. He will add to that total. In fact, he is adding to it at a record pace so far this season.

Peyton has 179 more TD passes than Montana had. That's over 1,000 points on the scoreboard.

You'll probably point out that Montana threw fewer passes. And you're right. This goes right back to my point about Montana not having to do it all himself. He played on great teams with great running games. Even still, Peyton's career completion percentage is higher than Joe's.

You'll probably want to point out that Peyton has thrown more INTs. And you'd be right. But that is only because he has had to throw it a lot more than Joe had to. It will probably come as a surprise to you, however, that their INT% over the course of their respective careers is identical (2.6%). Joe threw INTs with the same regularity as Peyton. But Peyton hasn't thrown any INTs so far this season. So he may yet surpass Joe in this category as well.

Joe's career QB rating was 92.3. Peyton's is 96.5.

But Joe played on a better team. I'll give you that.
 
#194
#194
BadJerry20 said:
Ummm he drove them 92 yards to win the Super Bowl...if that isn't the ultimate pressure and putting a team on your shoulders I'm not sure what is. But who cares about facts right? I'm actually thinking you didn't watch Joe much and are just picking stats.
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Pretty much. At least."The Catch" Googled this time. If Dwight was shorter, if Montana had not won Super Bowls, if Peyton wins more. If if if stats stats stats.
 
#200
#200
BadJerry20 said:
So again all the winning is Peyton and all the losing is his team. Or does he simply beat lesser competition then struggle when he faces the big dogs?
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He beats lesser competition and big dogs in regular season. Then he does the same thing in the playoffs, you just have to go undefeated in the playoffs, and he doesn't. Not very complicated.
 
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