War in Ukraine

[volgr]

That Putin questioned Ukraine statehood? He absolutely denied it.

Questioning their statehood and eliminating them from existence is quite different.

 

[tvolsfan]

Is that his current goal? Had that been stated or did it just meet your beliefs?

Please back that up with ANY evidence from Putin's mouth or actions.

This is from the Kremlin:

During the recent Direct Line, when I was asked about Russian-Ukrainian relations, I said that Russians and Ukrainians were one people – a single whole. These words were not driven by some short-term considerations or prompted by the current political context. It is what I have said on numerous occasions and what I firmly believe. I therefore feel it necessary to explain my position in detail and share my assessments of today's situation.

First of all, I would like to emphasize that the wall that has emerged in recent years between Russia and Ukraine, between the parts of what is essentially the same historical and spiritual space, to my mind is our great common misfortune and tragedy. These are, first and foremost, the consequences of our own mistakes made at different periods of time. But these are also the result of deliberate efforts by those forces that have always sought to undermine our unity. The formula they apply has been known from time immemorial – divide and rule. There is nothing new here. Hence the attempts to play on the ”national question“ and sow discord among people, the overarching goal being to divide and then to pit the parts of a single people against one another.

He also said it was madness that Soviet Republics were allowed to leave the USSR.

 

[hog88]

will of course they were so why even try. Let's just continue the same path of killing people and infrastructure that makes investors happy

Then at least try. They're going to hurt Europe if no one tries a new approach. Until then the poorest still get the short straw

So give into the bully?

 

[utvolpj]

Russia does claim part of their stated goals is de-nazification. That isn't propaganda. While Ukraine does have a neo-Nazi problem, and they do turn a blind eye to it, it's not like 50% of the Country are part of this group but the group is quite large and they have integrated into Ukraine's armed forces. None of that is propaganda.

It's propaganda that it's a justification for war. You've repeated it as fact as well which is false

 

[Velo Vol]

Lol

Annexation was so yesterday.

 

[hog88]

Expansion. If Russia was putting missiles on the Mexican border we would do the same. It's a purposeful provocation

We've had missiles on the Russian border for decades and more recently NATO members bordering Russia.

 

[LouderVol]

Expansion. If Russia was putting missiles on the Mexican border we would do the same. It's a purposeful provocation

Link to us putting missiles in Ukraine? Link to us talking about missiles in ukraine? Link to us building a base or stationing troops in ukraine? Link to us seriously talking with Ukraine to join NATO before Russia's invasion or occupation?

Its paranoia. NATO has kept Russia safer than Russia has ever been able to keep Russia safe.

When can we expect the US to invade Nicargua? https://thehill.com/opinion/nationa...nter-central-america-how-will-the-us-respond/

 

[utvolpj]

So give into the bully?

Or speak with them. Without that, what's the end game? Push until nukes fly? That sounds fun

 

[hog88]

Russia's goal is to completely eliminate all of Ukraine from existence?

No, Putin just wants to make it a vassal state.

 

[tvolsfan]

Questioning their statehood and eliminating them from existence is quite different.

Well, you’re seeing him try to eliminate it from existence. He is literally trying to annex lands he doesn’t even control, and you’re thinking he would give up lands his army did take over?

 

[volgr]

It's propaganda that it's a justification for war. You've repeated it as fact as well which is false

It is a FACT that part of Russia's justification is de-nazification. That isn't propaganda. What could be considered propaganda is that Russia is overstating the Nazi issue in Ukraine. Be more precise.

Also, my main point throughout this thread has never been the Nazi justification. My point is and has been, Russia is using the same broad self defense justification that the US uses to invade Countries.

 

[tvolsfan]

No, Putin just wants to make it a vassal state.

I think, at the absolute least, he wants a Lukashenko style puppet who would join in on the “Union State” agreement. But even that I just think would be to make it appear as though it wasn’t a land grab.

 

[evillawyer]

Shocked that so many of these guys are getting killed in Ukraine

 

[volgr]

Well, you’re seeing him try to eliminate it from existence. He is literally trying to annex lands he doesn’t even control, and you’re thinking he would give up lands his army did take over?

He has bent over backwards to TRY NOT to eliminate Ukraine. He just said this in an interview the other day. If his goal was to eliminate Ukraine, why the hell would he waste so much time early in the conflict, on peace negotiations? There is no evidence he wanted to eliminate Ukraine.

 

[LouderVol]

See Yemen

Selling arms means we are committing genocide?

Does the billions in aides going to Yemen offset that genocide at all? Biden had clearly shown that, at least he, we don't control Saudi Arabia. Even when it comes to directly dealing with us, yet alone their foreign policy.

 

[volgr]

No, Putin just wants to make it a vassal state.

They already are a Western vassal State.

 

[LouderVol]

Russia does claim part of their stated goals is de-nazification. That isn't propaganda. While Ukraine does have a neo-Nazi problem, and they do turn a blind eye to it, it's not like 50% of the Country are part of this group but the group is quite large and they have integrated into Ukraine's armed forces. None of that is propaganda.

Quite large? Can you link to that? The largest number I have ever seen is 5000 paramilitary forces, including the Nazis, but not only Nazis. At worst that's 1% of ukraines military..

 

[utvolpj]

Link to us putting missiles in Ukraine? Link to us talking about missiles in ukraine? Link to us building a base or stationing troops in ukraine? Link to us seriously talking with Ukraine to join NATO before Russia's invasion or occupation?

Its paranoia. NATO has kept Russia safer than Russia has ever been able to keep Russia safe.

When can we expect the US to invade Nicargua? https://thehill.com/opinion/nationa...nter-central-america-how-will-the-us-respond/

So we would not give missiles to a nato country on Russian borders?

Not sure the "we're protecting you from yourself" is a great argument. I don't believe that's our role and I don't believe pushing nato toward that goal is useful either unless we're prepared for war

 

[LouderVol]

Questioning their statehood and eliminating them from existence is quite different.

Really? Is the Russian military a scalpel or sledge hammer?

 

[volgr]

So give into the bully?

Happens throughout history. You got to know when to hold'em and now when to fold'em. Ukraine was seduced by the West's siren song and know their Country is fcked.

 

[utvolpj]

Selling arms means we are committing genocide?

Does the billions in aides going to Yemen offset that genocide at all? Biden had clearly shown that, at least he, we don't control Saudi Arabia. Even when it comes to directly dealing with us, yet alone their foreign policy.

the US is absolutely complicit in the Yemen genocide. You think that happens if we're opposed to it?

 

[volgr]

Really? Is the Russian military a scalpel or sledge hammer?

It started off as a scalpel, but they are about to get the hammer it seems. Again, Putin addressed this issue just the other day.

 

[hog88]

Or speak with them. Without that, what's the end game? Push until nukes fly? That sounds fun

I agree that we should be looking for a diplomatic solution but that would have to include Russia withdrawing from all of Ukraine including Crimea. Bar Ukraine from NATO membership if we have to but Russia cannot gain territory from any peace agreement.

 

[volgr]

Quite large? Can you link to that? The largest number I have ever seen is 5000 paramilitary forces, including the Nazis, but not only Nazis. At worst that's 1% of ukraines military..

Large enough that Nazi related symbols are seen quite frequently in pictures of Ukrainian troops. The neo-nazi supporting portion of Ukraine is higher than 1% but it isn't as large as Russia makes it out to be.

 

[tvolsfan]

Large enough that Nazi related symbols are seen quite frequently in pictures of Ukrainian troops. The neo-nazi supporting portion of Ukraine is higher than 1% but it isn't as large as Russia makes it out to be.

Right, Russia invaded a country because “more than 1 percent” of their military wore Nazi symbols.