War in Ukraine

#49,476
#49,476
LouderVol said:
More like 2013 when Yanokych went against the will of his people and got bought off by Russia.
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Funny how some of these guys who state that government actions should benefit the average man in the street don't seem upset by an elected Ukrainian defector ... or by China currently buying politicians, then selling countries projects the can't afford, and then taking land for debt. However, they get all wadded up about things that some unscrupulous US "diplomats" did decades ago. All the while claiming the evils of "failed diplomacy", and neglecting what's right in their faces.
 
#49,477
#49,477
LouderVol said:
Daryia could be terrorism. If it was done by Ukraine. Plenty of angry Russians might have also wanted to go after her dad.

Nordstream was an act of war. It was a potential means of funding their enemy. So if it was done by Ukraine it's a valid target. Germany may not like it, but they can take it uo with whoever they think did it. If it was the US or some third party I would say terrorism fits a bit. Not really an attack that causes fear/terror to change politics.

The nuclear plant is an interesting situation. No direct attacks on the plant just yet despite practically being the front line. The only things I have seen reported is loss of power. Power was lost after a missile attack hit a near by substation held by Ukraine. The plant is held by Russia. So no matter who did it, they took out a substation serving both Ukrainian held territory and Russian held territory. That seems like an act of war no matter who did it. What's interesting is the Ukrainians cant repair the substation due to ongoing shelling by the Russians, and the Russians have captured/stolen two separate fuel shipments trying to get to the plant to fuel the back up diesel generators. So russia doesnt seem to be taking it as a very serious threat.

So at worst you have one case of terrorism, and potentially a causi bellum for Germany in Ukraine.
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Things don't go well at nuclear plants when they are removed from the grid and don't have continual backup power. Unlike most heating sources that cool fairly easily once turned off, nuclear plants have to have continual cooling for shut down reactors and spent fuel. Another problem that could have been averted if Russia had stayed home and minded it's own business.
 
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#49,478
#49,478
LouderVol said:
China is a huge importer of food. They arent capable of feeding themselves. Generations of absolutely terrible agricultural policies have doomed this ability. Going back to Mao's 4 Pests. They have focused too much in industrializing and getting people off their farms and into cities where they have to rely on the government to take care of them instead of being somewhat independent.
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Yep, China could probably be self sufficient if it would. A lot of land there isn't suitable for agriculture, and the population size itself is the other issue. They could manage the land far better, not have taken the current course, and likely have been self sufficient. It's hard to say whether famine in places like China is just a fact of life or a way of life because it hasn't been adequately addressed. Sometimes I don't think we are much better when it comes to feeding our people. Too much of the similar trend in losing farms and the people who once ran them.
 
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#49,479
#49,479
AM64 said:
Yep, China could probably be self sufficient if it would. A lot of land there isn't suitable for agriculture, and the population size itself is the other issue. They could manage the land far better, not have taken the current course, and likely have been self sufficient. It's hard to say whether famine in places like China is just a fact of life or a way of life because it hasn't been adequately addressed. Sometimes I don't think we are much better when it comes to feeding our people. Too much of the similar trend in losing farms and the people who once ran them.
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I think our biggest issue is that we develop our most arable lands. If we really cared about the environment we would stop building out, and just go up. I think like Europe, once you get outside the city/village, no matter how big, you immediately hit farm land. The worse the land gets the more water and or fertilizer we need.
 
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#49,480
#49,480
Rocky_Top_Vol13 said:
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Another day older and deeper in debt. Could have done so much more with that if Russia still operated from St. Petersburg instead of Moscow.
 
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#49,481
#49,481
LouderVol said:
I think our biggest issue is that we develop our most arable lands. If we really cared about the environment we would stop building out, and just go up. I think like Europe, once you get outside the city/village, no matter how big, you immediately hit farm land. The worse the land gets the more water and or fertilizer we need.
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Absolutely agree. I saw an article not long ago about the huge quantity of TN farmland being lost to development. You get the impression people move to cities, but don't want to be in cities, so they destroy adjacent farmland, so they can pretend not to be in a city. MAD of a different kind.
 
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#49,482
#49,482
AM64 said:
Absolutely agree. I saw an article not long ago about the huge quantity of TN farmland being lost to development. You get the impression people move to cities, but don't want to be in cities, so they destroy adjacent farmland, so they can pretend not to be in a city. MAD of a different kind.
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I think it plays into the hands of the farm corporations as well. They are bigger and can worker with smaller margins than the small guys.
 
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#49,483
#49,483
volgr said:
Didn't say that. I said it should you make you highly question an issue when you find yourself and your enemy (they would consider you the enemy, if you want to soften it, those whom you regularly disagree with) standing shoulder to shoulder.
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I don't view either as the enemy though. Not sure why anyone should, we just disagree on policy. And here's the shocker, I disagree with both Democrats and Republicans, libertarians, socialists and everything in between all the time. I agree with them often as well.
 
#49,484
#49,484
LouderVol said:
Just like you are assuming most of Ukraines western trained soldiers died at the start of the war I am assuming many of Russias elite that took Mauripol also died. If they are all still hiding, why call up all the reserves? The conscription speaks to the losses of effective Russian fighters.

You are making the same argument you accused me of, with a side of not reading what I actually said. I didnt say Russia only had T62s and AK74s left. I just pointed out there is older equipment in use, and its evidenced with what gets captured. I dont think if the Russians had huge stockpiles of the good stuff they would be arming the first 150k with it. Now that they have 300k new guys to arm, and they have a limited stockpile of the good stuff it's not a falsehood to think the 300k arent getting T90s and AK 12s. Which would limit their combat effectiveness.

How far was their offensive supposed to go? I must have missed the announcement they were headed to Moscow and got stopped short of the border. Seems like most of the halting was by choice. As far as their logistics go we havent seen a failure of it similar to what Russia faced in those regions before the counter attack. Which makes sense since they are taking back their own land, and not expanding into foreign territory like Russia did. And they certainly havent taken all of it back, limiting the scope of their "expanded" logistics.

The Ukrainians still have some effective artillery and HIMARs or other similar guided missile system. That's how they are able to strike these bridges, or the Crimean Airport, or those rail lines in Russia. The Ukrainians arent out of the fight by any stretch of the imagination.
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It's probably safe to say that Ukrainians are more discriminating in how they retake their own territory than the Russians were when they barged in uninvited.
 
#49,485
#49,485
LouderVol said:
I frankly dont care when they were built, bad dudes are bad dudes. But I addressed a possible, non Nazi reason. National pride/nationalism. In the look for historical references of Anti Russian ukrainians those are the biggest. Doesnt mean anyone should like it, but it's hardly invasion worthy.

Didnt we elect one of those guys giving speeches next to David Duke? Can russia invade us?

And you continue to ignore that since McCain gave that speech Svoboda has lost 36 seats, all but 1 that they held. McCains speech did a better job deNazifying Ukraine than Russia has.

Again street names and statues has to be the absolutely dumbest argument to invade a country I have ever heard. Even BLM isnt that weak minded.

You really think Putin rolled in there to change a few street signs? Like if they were torn down or changed Putin takes his boys back home, with a Mission Accomplished banner hung across their diesel powered air craft carrier as it sinks in drydock? It's about power/ego, nothing more nothing less. The Nazi street signs arent hurting anyone.
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I never said they invaded because of street signs and monuments. I swear some of you guys need to develop basic reading comprehension skills.

You and others have tried to downplay the neo Nazi element that exists in Ukraine. You guys were wrong. Plain and simple. It exists and we should not be providing weapons or military support to a country that has this problem.

You are also ignoring regional oblast councils in Ukraine. For example the Ternopil Oblast Council has 64 members. 13 of those members belong to the Svoboda Party. Svoboda also hold 6 seats in the Lviv Oblast Council. And they hold more seats in some of the other oblast councils.
 
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#49,489
#49,489
A week or so ago I sort of half joked Ukraine was fighting for kiddie drag shows...turns out I was more right than wrong, as usual.
 
#49,490
#49,490
DonjoVol said:
You and others have tried to downplay the neo Nazi element that exists in Ukraine. You guys were wrong. Plain and simple. It exists and we should not be providing weapons or military support to a country that has this problem.
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No Curly we’ve said it’s not significant and it’s irrelevant on the current Ukrainian political landscape. And even with you doing your best stretch Armstrong you’ve done nothing to disprove that.
 
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#49,491
#49,491
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#49,495
#49,495
The West and Ukraine need to come up with a viable exit strategy for Putin. Something that let's him save face at home and maintain power. Problem is, the deeper he goes on this, the harder it will be to come up with such a solution.
 
#49,496
#49,496
lawgator1 said:
The West and Ukraine need to come up with a viable exit strategy for Putin. Something that let's him save face at home and maintain power. Problem is, the deeper he goes on this, the harder it will be to come up with such a solution.
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It's not the Wests job, or Ukraine's, to help Putin stop being a biatch. He's the problem. This is another example of your leftist positions being wrong. It's Putins job, just like other people who make ****** decisions, to fix their lot in life.

The viable exit strategy is obvious. GTFO and pay for what you broke. His freebie is not being held for being a war criminal .
 
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#49,497
#49,497
volfanhill said:
It's not the Wests job, or Ukraine's, to help Putin stop being a biatch. He's the problem. This is another example of your leftist positions being wrong. It's Putins job, just like other people who make ****** decisions, to fix their lot in life.

The viable exit strategy is obvious. GTFO and pay for what you broke. His freebie is not being held for being a war criminal .
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There’s no way Putin staying in power can happen at this point. He’s all in. In fact his own elites may be a bigger threat than Ukraine and their allies at this point.
 
#49,498
#49,498
lawgator1 said:
The West and Ukraine need to come up with a viable exit strategy for Putin. Something that let's him save face at home and maintain power. Problem is, the deeper he goes on this, the harder it will be to come up with such a solution.
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His only off-ramp should be that he is lucky he won't end up like Slobodan Milosevic and end up on trial in the Hague when this war is over. Until then nothing but continued pressure should be put on him.
 
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#49,499
#49,499
Burhead said:
His only off-ramp should be that he is lucky he won't end up like Slobodan Milosevic and end up on trial in the Hague when this war is over. Until then nothing but continued pressure should be put on him.
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And what if Ukraine collapses...then what?
 
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