War in Ukraine

#51,655
#51,655
hog88 said:
Only 2 times I can think of that its been successful is after WWII, Germany and Japan.
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South Korea has largely been successful. The Philippines has been successful but has been marred by corruption more recently. But that’s part of it they aren’t puppets they have free will.

But in every case in the sandbox or Western Asia it’s a huge failure. Unless you consider Kuwait stand alone and separate from Iraq we liberated them and they still stand. But as others have said they aren’t willing to work and fight to keep their freedom. And we suck at forcing the issue anyway once that’s clear.
 
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#51,657
#51,657
tvolsfan said:
The point is Afghanistan and Iraq aren't nations so much as a bunch of people arbitrarily grouped together by Europeans.
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Tribalism and nation building are incompatible concepts - and always will be. There's nothing difficult about it except some people just keep trying to pound square pegs in round holes and failing to accept that it just doesn't work. Better method: let the tribes kill each other off and then use the land for something productive ... maybe even supply all parties the weapons to speed up the process.
 
#51,660
#51,660
tvolsfan said:
The point is Afghanistan and Iraq aren't nations so much as a bunch of people arbitrarily grouped together by Europeans.
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Iraq and most of these countries in the ME that were created after Sykes-Picot are no different than how the country of Ukraine was formed starting after WWI.
 
#51,668
#51,668
Rasputin_Vol said:
Iraq and most of these countries in the ME that were created after Sykes-Picot are no different than how the country of Ukraine was formed starting after WWI.
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You really dont know one side of that equation. Not sure if it's the ME or the Ukraine side, but they were very different foundings.


Ukraine: Their previous nation dissolves under a multi sided civil war? The locals fight off both major sides of the conflict? Locals start losing to one side, so they join the other, who ends up winning? And then join the winning sides new union of separate nations?

ME: old nation dissolves. Begins multi sided war of independence. Victor's of WW1 draws lines on a page dividing the area up, and then occupies for decades and puts down numerous rebellions killing thousands.

I mean maybe if you consider the USSR to be the invading occupier who killed thousands/millions of locals. But that argument requires one to assume the USSR is Russia. Which we have been told time and again they arent.
 
#51,669
#51,669
Russia is just galvanizing an enemy that won't forget what they did for decades, maybe centuries.
 
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#51,670
#51,670
tvolsfan said:
Please, even the Bolsheviks considered Ukraine a separate nationality.
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Which makes my point. It was created no differently than how Iraq, Syria and Trans-Jordan were in the Middle east... or Palestine for that matter. Ukraine was cobbled together from pieces of Romania and Russian Empire after WWI. Galacia from Poland, Carpathian Ruthenia from Hungary and Crimea were added after WWII.
 
#51,672
#51,672
Rasputin_Vol said:
Which makes my point. It was created no differently than how Iraq, Syria and Trans-Jordan were in the Middle east... or Palestine for that matter. Ukraine was cobbled together from pieces of Romania and Russian Empire after WWI. Galacia from Poland, Carpathian Ruthenia from Hungary and Crimea were added after WWII.
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It’s completely different, especially from the Arab states. Ethnic nationalities played a huge role in the Russian Civil War. The borders may have been in flux, but the concept of independent states for the different nationalities makes it completely different from some of the other examples you mentioned. Ukraine just wasn’t as lucky as some of the other ethnic nationalities within Russia.
 
#51,673
#51,673
Rasputin_Vol said:
So let’s roll with that. So 2 examples from 80 years ago. Now how many projects have gone wrong in the 80 years since?
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I’m not sure if you’re missing the point on purpose to start an argument. You asked for examples. You were provided with examples. I’ve made it clear how different those countries are from Afghanistan and Iraq.
 
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#51,675
#51,675
tvolsfan said:
Uh, it’s completely different. Ethnic nationalities played a huge role in the Russian Civil War. Ukraine just wasn’t as lucky as some of the other ethnic nationalities within Russia. Christ, do you even know Russian history?
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No, you are missing the point in two ways. First, if ethnic nationalities mattered so much, then Ukraine wouldn't have been cobbled together with Poles and Hungarians in the west and Russians in the east and Black Sea coast. Secondly, just like those Middle East countries were drawn up by outside colonial powers, Ukraine was created by a regional power.

Do you know Russian history? Or history in general when it comes to Sykes-Picot?
 
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