War in Ukraine

#60,876
#60,876
NorthDallas40 said:
Ok that isn’t what I inferred. I think I’ve already said that exact point back to our chief propagandist. It’s Russia’s if they can hold it. That pretty much applies to any territorial boundary be it a legal or might challenge.

I’m still just struggling to understand why it matters.
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it's a discussion board - I'm trying to have a discussion about the principle of historic rights to land. it really has nothing to do with Putin other than this is the current example at hand.
 
#60,877
#60,877
volinbham said:
I'll have to do some digging but I bet the civilized world is largely ignoring it elsewhere in the world.

IOW - it's not all purity of motive. It's strategic interest.
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I think everyone with a functioning brain has rejected Russia’s moral or historical or claims and just labelled this a land and resource grab. I don’t understand why that distinction needs to be pointed out at this point.
 
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#60,879
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#60,881
#60,881
tvolsfan said:
That’s actually what we are all saying. Trying to determine borders based on historic claims is impossible. The tweet was making fun of Russia using “historic” claims to the land as a pretext for invasion.
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my comment about us borders was also a joke (note the smiley face) yet it was taken as me being Putin foot soldier.

most our Israeli/Palestinian peace efforts over decades was based in historic claims to land - sometimes it matters/sometimes it doesn't. I'm just suggesting it's worthy of exploring why sometimes it matters and sometimes it doesn't.

I'm not saying Russia's claim is legit.
 
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#60,882
#60,882
volinbham said:
it's a discussion board - I'm trying to have a discussion about the principle of historic rights to land. it really has nothing to do with Putin other than this is the current example at hand.
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Understood and I acknowledged that. Your point applies to pretty much any sovereign state. Right now there is at least a lot of sentiment to not let Russia have it unopposed if Ukraine wants to fight.

I’ll say if Ukraine calls Uncle and we keep pressing that’s patently wrong and likely immoral of us also.
 
#60,884
#60,884
volinbham said:
clearly my post came off wrong.

I'm saying human history has been if you can hold it; it is yours. Various mechanisms (laws, treaties, allies, etc.) have arisen to mitigate some of the abuses but still the rule applies right or wrong.

This all arouse in merely pointing out that we ourselves have taken land and those we took it from were unable to stop us, laws couldn't stop us and no other actors came to the aid of those we took it from.

It is not an endorsement.

It is not an excuse for Russian aggression.

It is an observation.
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That makes sense. It also makes sense that once we became more civil and established boundaries that could be drawn on maps, other countries should respect those boundaries. We shouldn't be having wars of conquest over land these days. It's like slavery and other things of the past that we supposedly no longer do in this more "enlightened" world. Some things that were once established and customary are no longer seen as appropriate, and that should include unfriendly acquisition of land.
 
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#60,885
#60,885
hog88 said:
What benefits would we get?
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I'm already reaping benefits. I'm extremely pleased and happy to know that Russia is not the threat to my children's and grandchildren's wellbeing that I thought they were. They are not as likely, as I once perceived to disrupt the order and workings of democratic nations around the world. My diastolic pressure is probably down a few points. Lower blood pressure, my children's future and the prospects that freedom loving people everywhere might be a little more secure than they were a year ago is a benefit I welcome.

Of course you're talking about money though. Don't worry you will get your share. American capitalists will find a way to exploit a wounded Russia and your share will trickle down.
 
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#60,886
#60,886
DC_Vol said:
There are a number of people here who get bent out shape pretty easily if you’re not ready to kiss Zelensky’s ass.
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Because when you see a post that largely reads like the prior appeasement posts you’ve read 10,000 times in here already there’s a certain “oh hell here we go again 🙄” inference to be made? Granted bham is very level headed and is an honest broker however.
 
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#60,887
#60,887
I hope Ukraine decimates the Russians, but the US has given enough and waded too far out into the water on this one.

Let the EU countries take it from here. We’ve given more than all of them combined.
 
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#60,889
#60,889
volinbham said:
I'm asking a larger principal.

It's hard to discuss in this forum because as you've done here I'm accused of appeasement.

Is it impossible to contemplate the larger issue of which historic claims are valid and which are not?
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I’m about to go play XBox again but I’ll apologize if you feel I attacked you. I didn’t mean to come off attacking I honestly try to engage you fairly on the up and up. You’re an honest broker in how you approach topics in here absolutely
 
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#60,891
#60,891
NorthDallas40 said:
Because when you see a post that largely reads like the prior appeasement posts you’ve read 10,000 times in here already there’s a certain “oh hell here we go again 🙄” inference to be made? Granted bham is very level headed and is an honest broker however.
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I'm guilty at times myself of judging my interpretation of a post rather than the author's intent.

For example, I see many posts that come of as more "yippee!, Ukraine is doing our dirty work for us" than they are intended to be.

Likewise I see many posts I see as more morbid cheerleading of a horrible situation than they are intended to be.

The best policy is probably to assume good faith (as you have with me) and ask for clarification rather than prepare the angry response.

cheers
 
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#60,892
#60,892
NorthDallas40 said:
I’m about to go play XBox again but I’ll apologize if you feel I attacked you. I didn’t mean to come off attacking I honestly try to engage you fairly on the up and up. You’re an honest broker in how you approach topics in here absolutely
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no worries - you were fair in your responses and asked for clarification. i appreciate it
 
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#60,893
#60,893
volinbham said:
I'm guilty at times myself of judging my interpretation of a post rather than the author's intent.

For example, I see many posts that come of as more "yippee!, Ukraine is doing our dirty work for us" than they are intended to be.

Likewise I see many posts I see as more morbid cheerleading of a horrible situation than they are intended to be.

The best policy is probably to assume good faith (as you have with me) and ask for clarification rather than prepare the angry response.

cheers
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I always try to do that when I interact with you I can’t say I’m always successful. We both know and acknowledge we don’t agree but I respect that you have your own opinion. And it’s s valid point if you reject the level of our obligations as many have. I simply feel we have more exposure. I’ve said I’m against cash aid I think that’s a horrible idea. And if an Ukraine somehow prevails and peace is reached with them still existing the existential threat has passed at that point let the EU pick up the tab unless there is a real business/trade incentive.

Now off to Gears 5.

And I wish you’d get the itch to pontificate about an hour earlier I do like reading your views 😬
 
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#60,895
#60,895
Hunerwadel said:
I'm already reaping benefits. I'm extremely pleased and happy to know that Russia is not the threat to my children's and grandchildren's wellbeing that I thought they were. They are not as likely, as I once perceived to disrupt the order and workings of democratic nations around the world. My diastolic pressure is probably down a few points. Lower blood pressure, my children's future and the prospects that freedom loving people everywhere might be a little more secure than they were a year ago is a benefit I welcome.

Of course you're talking about money though. Don't worry you will get your share. American capitalists will find a way to exploit a wounded Russia and your share will trickle down.
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I haven’t thought of or worried about Russia being a threat since the early 90s.
 
#60,897
#60,897
AM64 said:
Are you taking land when it's inhabited from time to time by nomads with overlapping claims? This also happened a long time before the US population was anything like it is now - don't think there were any borders or any maps either? To me the reality is that for a while land has been divvied up between countries. If you take something now, it belongs to somebody else.
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You mean like the Kurds? Or the Bedouins?
 
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