War in Ukraine

#64,376
#64,376
RDU VOL#14 said:
It would be an absolute thrashing. The Russians only battlefield threat is their nuclear arsenal. Yes that is a massive threat, but for a few exceptions their conventional tactics and technology are second rate.
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I don't think it would be the thrashing you guys imagine. It would be an absolute nightmare for both sides. America would take a tremendous amount of casualties, more than our public would have the stomach for.
 
#64,377
#64,377
LouderVol said:
what have you admitted? You won't even acknowledge the sound recordings of the high up Russians describing what they were going to do to Ukraine back in 2014. You won't ever acknowledge Prigozhin's near constant comments about Wagner's losses or ammunition problem. you never admit being wrong, you just drop the obvious bs and pick up the next story without skipping a beat.
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Where have I denied Wagner's losses? You are just making crap up, as usual. As for the recordings, if they are real, it doesn't really impact my view on anything.
 
#64,378
#64,378
LouderVol said:
another piece they refuse to acknowledge.
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Acknowledge what? Russia is in the middle of a war with the possibility of a conflict with the West. It isn't surprising they aren't fulfilling commitments to India. I think they need it a little more than India at the moment.
 
#64,379
#64,379
volgr said:
I don't think it would be the thrashing you guys imagine. It would be an absolute nightmare for both sides. America would take a tremendous amount of casualties, more than our public would have the stomach for.
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War always is a nightmare. But the way that Russia historically, and by all accounts in this most recent campaign, approaches warfare is especially nightmarish. They way they attempt to win is by overwhelming the enemy with ground troops taking high losses.

Russia knows it could not win, they would use nukes.
 
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#64,380
#64,380
volgr said:
Acknowledge what? Russia is in the middle of a war with the possibility of a conflict with the West. It isn't surprising they aren't fulfilling commitments to India. I think they need it a little more than India at the moment.
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So the west struggling to meet its weapon delivery dates is a sign that the west is falling behind. Russia struggling to meets its weapon delivery dates is a sign they are winning and doing just fine?
 
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#64,381
#64,381
volgr said:
Weird how your side called me crazy when I said kill ratios were probably 4 or 5:1. Only to find out they were closer to 7:1. Your side has been caught multiple times putting out incorrect info. Ghost of Kiev? Snake Island? Russia blew up their own gas pipeline? And the list goes on and on.

I have made a couple of incorrect assumptions and I have admitted that. You dont want people to engage us, not because we are liars, but because we keep winning most of these debates. We keep being proven correct.
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But we all know you can’t, Larry 🤡
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#64,382
#64,382
volgr said:
Where have I denied Wagner's losses? You are just making crap up, as usual. As for the recordings, if they are real, it doesn't really impact my view on anything.
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you have constantly balked at the numbers posted about Russia's losses, which I have always considered Wagner a part of. and I wasn't accusing you of denying their losses and problems. I said you ignore them. You are constantly saying everything is going great for Russia and that only western media says otherwise. We provide quotes from Prigozhin, and you never respond or acknowledge them.

why so laisse faire on the start of the conflict back in 2014? Your argument has been that the west started the unrest, and that it was independence movements that separated the regions from Ukraine. The recordings show that both were planned, backed, and operated, by Russia. Its AT LEAST on the same level as Nuland's phone call.
 
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#64,386
#64,386
volgr said:
I don't think it would be the thrashing you guys imagine. It would be an absolute nightmare for both sides. America would take a tremendous amount of casualties, more than our public would have the stomach for.
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I disagree. While I certainly don’t want any kind of war with the Russians, I don’t think the Russian Army has evolved one bit since World War 2. Yes technology has evolved, but the Russians still have the same mindset as they did 80 years ago. They have this meat grinder approach of just massive artillery barrages followed by armor and troops and they are logistically challenged. We’ve seen that time and time again since February of 22. The Russians haven’t even faced American air power and yet Russian personnel and armor have taken massive losses as the result of javelins and other last generation American made weaponry.
 
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#64,388
#64,388
volgr said:
I don't think it would be the thrashing you guys imagine. It would be an absolute nightmare for both sides. America would take a tremendous amount of casualties, more than our public would have the stomach for.
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I don't know if the military's abismal leadership has changed this calculus but prior to Biden taking office at least, Ivan would get crushed in a conventional war with the USA. absolutely curb stomped. That presumes btw that we wouldnt be capturing Russian territory, since, while we have learned to do the whole house to house thing very well, it takes a lot of time.

I mean if military to military - Russia's military would cease to exist very quickly. Its not that they dont have brave or trained soldiers, they just dont have the leadership at the lower levels we do )or at least did). Our political top brass, command and flag officers are utter garbage but at the unit levels, I suspect they are still very capable.

The combined arms approach would leave little for our infantry to mop up. And the logistic chain difference?, hah!

it would easily be a 20:1 kill ratio. But I do agree with you that could be too much. 100k Russian soldiers dead means a lot less to Russia than 5k American soldiers dead means to us.
 
#64,389
#64,389
RDU VOL#14 said:
I disagree. While I certainly don’t want any kind of war with the Russians, I don’t think the Russian Army has evolved one bit since World War 2. Yes technology has evolved, but the Russians still have the same mindset as they did 80 years ago. They have this meat grinder approach of just massive artillery barrages followed by armor and troops and they are logistically challenged. We’ve seen that time and time again since February of 22. The Russians haven’t even faced American air power and yet Russian personnel and armor have taken massive losses as the result of javelins and other last generation American made weaponry.
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As I have said, the US would be hard pressed to take a city like Mariupol as quickly and efficiently as Russia did. This talking point that Russia hasn't evolved since WW2 is quite honestly dumb. Are they as capable, well trained and technologically advanced as US forces? No. But they aren't that far behind. Would Russia also take a huge amount of casualties in a conflict with the US? Yes. Another false talking point is the massive equipment losses Russia has taken due to javelins. Totally false.
 
#64,390
#64,390
Gandalf said:
it would easily be a 20:1 kill ratio. But I do agree with you that could be too much. 100k Russian soldiers dead means a lot less to Russia than 5k American soldiers dead means to us.
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While I agree with the general sentiment, that is way too high. However, it depends on who is attacking and defending. If America were trying to take Russian land, it would probably be closer to 1:1. If America were to put boots on the ground in Ukraine and Russia was trying to take ground in Ukraine vs American forces, I could see 5 to 10:1.
 
#64,394
#64,394
volgr said:
As I have said, the US would be hard pressed to take a city like Mariupol as quickly and efficiently as Russia did. This talking point that Russia hasn't evolved since WW2 is quite honestly dumb. Are they as capable, well trained and technologically advanced as US forces? No. But they aren't that far behind. Would Russia also take a huge amount of casualties in a conflict with the US? Yes. Another false talking point is the massive equipment losses Russia has taken due to javelins. Totally false.
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Ok let’s say that there haven’t been huge equipment losses due to javelins or other anti tank weapons. They’ve certainly slowed down what was always thought to be the might of the Russian army. The Russian army with their massive artillery count and armor were supposed to roll through Berlin and be able to get through Western Europe within days of a European War starting . It was so feared that the basic NATO playbook deterrent was using tactical nukes to slowdown the advance. Doesn’t seem like that would be necessary now. What would’ve happened to that 40 mile convoy that got backed up for weeks if the American Air Force were involved? It would’ve been a slaughter of something that no one has ever seen. It would’ve made the hwy between Kuwait City and Iraq in 91 look like bumper cars.

I agree that the US public would not have the stomach for a large loss of life if we were to fight the Russians . However, going back to my analogy of the 1991 Gulf War, if we had to put boots on the ground and fight to push the Russians out of Ukraine, I think it would be very similar, but a longer campaign and with larger loss of life on the US side. This is assuming that the war would be fought conventionally.
 
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#64,396
#64,396
RDU VOL#14 said:
Ok let’s say that there haven’t been huge equipment losses due to javelins or other anti tank weapons. They’ve certainly slowed down what was always thought to be the might of the Russian army. The Russian army with their massive artillery count and armor were supposed to roll through Berlin and be able to get through Western Europe within days of a European War starting . It was so feared that the basic NATO playbook deterrent was using tactical nukes to slowdown the advance. Doesn’t seem like that would be necessary now. What would’ve happened to that 40 mile convoy that got backed up for weeks if the American Air Force were involved? It would’ve been a slaughter of something that no one has ever seen. It would’ve made the hwy between Kuwait City and Iraq in 91 look like bumper cars.

I agree that the US public would not have the stomach for a large loss of life if we were to fight the Russians . However, going back to my analogy of the 1991 Gulf War, if we had to put boots on the ground and fight to push the Russians out of Ukraine, I think it would be very similar, but a longer campaign and with larger loss of life on the US side. This is assuming that the war would be fought conventionally.
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You are talking about 2 totally different scenarios. Ukraine vs Russia trying to quickly roll through and take Berlin. Also, Ukraine hasn't slowed down the might of the Russian army, but Russia has slowed down the might of the Russian army. Again, look at the scenario and objectives. Russia is trying to minimize losses while inflicting maximum damage to Ukraine's capability to wage war. Russia also has to prepare for a possible conflict with the West, so they while they are fighting Ukraine they have to also prepare for that possibility. Again, what Russia has done to this point, has largely been impressive minus the first few weeks of fumbles due to Russian assumptions that were incorrect and later waiting too late to mobilize.
 
#64,398
#64,398
volgr said:
You are talking about 2 totally different scenarios. Ukraine vs Russia trying to quickly roll through and take Berlin. Also, Ukraine hasn't slowed down the might of the Russian army, but Russia has slowed down the might of the Russian army. Again, look at the scenario and objectives. Russia is trying to minimize losses while inflicting maximum damage to Ukraine's capability to wage war. Russia also has to prepare for a possible conflict with the West, so they while they are fighting Ukraine they have to also prepare for that possibility. Again, what Russia has done to this point, has largely been impressive minus the first few weeks of fumbles due to Russian assumptions that were incorrect and later waiting too late to mobilize.
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Does Putin pay by you by the hour or by the post?
 
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#64,399
#64,399
volgr said:
No one says you have to. It only confirms what some of us have known for quite some time re: Himars.
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Actually what it states Larry is that targets protected by GPS jammers are more difficult to target. That’s common sense. Those are targets like the Kersh Bridge. That isn’t a group of Vatniks holing up in a building.

Also it looks like they need to roll out those AGM-88’s we provided and clear out some of those jammers. Problem solved.
 
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#64,400
#64,400
volgr said:
You are talking about 2 totally different scenarios. Ukraine vs Russia trying to quickly roll through and take Berlin. Also, Ukraine hasn't slowed down the might of the Russian army, but Russia has slowed down the might of the Russian army. Again, look at the scenario and objectives. Russia is trying to minimize losses while inflicting maximum damage to Ukraine's capability to wage war. Russia also has to prepare for a possible conflict with the West, so they while they are fighting Ukraine they have to also prepare for that possibility. Again, what Russia has done to this point, has largely been impressive minus the first few weeks of fumbles due to Russian assumptions that were incorrect and later waiting too late to mobilize.
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I see. I guess your definition of impressive and most people’s are largely different .
 
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