War in Ukraine

#66,203
#66,203
AM64 said:
Ukraine, Israel, and S Korea seem to be the only worthwhile projects we've militarily supported during times of war - other than world wars. The interesting part is that we've had boots on the ground for most of the losers we've supported, but Ukraine and Israel with help did what was needed with aid, and a thoroughly down S Korea once picked up and dusted off has turned out very well. You get the impression (including experience) that most of the Middle East, large parts of Asia, and Africa and S America in general are simply going to be wasted effort to support militarily. Only a fool would have gone into Afghanistan.
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Why was it our business to support even the so-called "worthwhile projects"? Ukraine (LOL), Israel (LOL) and South Korea are no where near our borders or our realm of influence. All 3 are half a world a way from us.
 
#66,207
#66,207
Burhead said:
I think you're wrong, especially if it was the byproduct of unilateral military action. Hell I don't think the alliance has the stomach to even respond if Russia did attack a member state.
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When you say "stomach", that seems to me like you are saying "political will".

I would argue at this point, it is clear they don't have the "military means" or "industrial capacity" of competing with Russia right now.
 
#66,210
#66,210
Burhead said:
I long said that the West is complicit in the start of this latest round of fighting. We should have started arm shipments like we're doing now in 2014 we wasted eight years of preparing the Ukrainian army to deter and withstand an open Russian invasion. You think its a waste of money that's fine you're entitled to your opinion however I am of the opinion we can not allow borders to be changed by force. Furthermore we're entangling an adversary in a quagmire of their own choice without costing American lives. So this is a win-win for all parties: we set back the Russian and degrade and destroy their conventional forces for pennies on the dollar and we gain a new ally in the process.
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Since when has this been official US policy? Or for that matter, of what significance is a border change in Eastern Europe of importance to a country in North America?
 
#66,211
#66,211
Burhead said:
I long said that the West is complicit in the start of this latest round of fighting. We should have started arm shipments like we're doing now in 2014 we wasted eight years of preparing the Ukrainian army to deter and withstand an open Russian invasion. You think its a waste of money that's fine you're entitled to your opinion however I am of the opinion we can not allow borders to be changed by force. Furthermore we're entangling an adversary in a quagmire of their own choice without costing American lives. So this is a win-win for all parties: we set back the Russian and degrade and destroy their conventional forces for pennies on the dollar and we gain a new ally in the process.
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A quagmire at the expense of the lives of the proxies.
 
#66,212
#66,212
vols40 said:
I agree we should have helped in 2014.
Russia is not an adversary per se. Yes they have a lot of nukes but that's where it ends.
I fail to see the benefit of Ukraine as an ally? What do they have to offer? I'm open to being persuaded.

If by pennies on the dollar means just about $100 billion then I also may be on board because if that is true at that rate Ukraine will bankrupt Russia and China both in approximately 2.3875 years.
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Between 2014 and 2022, the US built the second best army in the Europe. Put Ukraine's army of February 2022 against any other European NATO army and they would like win... Turkiye may have been their only true peer.
 
#66,216
#66,216
BreatheUT said:
I think you're in too deep and is taking this personally.

The Europeans were concerned about losing the energy from the NS2. What better way to get rid of it as an issue and support Ukraine?
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Except for the facts that NS2 hadn't been brought online at the time it was destroyed, and NS1 had the gas flow turned off by Putin already.
 
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#66,220
#66,220
vols40 said:
I know this response is a bit long but please read for my genuine response to your well reasoned post.


Not so fast I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying. I am old enough to remember the true fear of the cold war. For some strange reason it was widely accepted that if the Red Army launched a nuclear missile at us we would be safe by simply getting on the floor placing our arms over our head and crouching underneath our desks (how ridiculous does that sound now LMAO) But Russia will always be the evil empire to me. I to respect the "punch the bully in the mouth" mentality. I vividly remember the miracle on ice. I remember that game was not for the gold medal. We had amateurs playing against grown professional men. I remember President Reagan saying "Mr Gorbachev TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!" Then watching as Mr Gorbachev did exactly as he was told. I remember the jubilation at that insanely symbolic victory in the Cold war.

But as I have aged I have also learned that the cost of fighting another countries civil war has absolutely zero benefit for the US. Doesn't mean I don't have empathy for the people who are affected. It's called perspective. I have many Laos people who work for me with harrowing bone chilling stories about packing only a few things and trusting strangers with taking them from the only home they ever knew to the hope of just a better chance of survival. And these are some of the most amazing people you can ever imagine to have met.

Look at the # of casualties combined in the Korean, Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan wars ( at or around 100,000) and I ask you one simple question looking back now was it worth it? Are any of those countries better off because of our sacrifice?

Apologies if my takes have inferred anything other than my steadfast distaste for the MIC of our country and the propaganda they have pushed resulting in countless heartache for US family members for roughly the last 75 years. I am as conservative as they come I don't hide that. I also have zero use for the Bush, Cheney, McConnell, Graham, Romney wing of the Republican party.

I appreciate your feelings and I bet we are probably way more together than you may realize.
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Korea is definitely better thanks to us, the South at least, the ones we helped; you can see what help from the Chinese gets you.
Vietnam is definitely a better place now too,but that is despite what we did.
Iraq has had some improvements, they dont have a leader gassing their own people, and the quality of life for the minorities has gone up considerably. That may be a wash with the violence that came after we left.
Afghanistan it's hard to say one way or the other, doesnt seem like anything really changed.

The outcome for the locals isnt how I would judge worth. The outcome for us is what I would look at. So in that case it would be three no's and a yes, korea being the yes.

But then you also have the butterfly effect, of what happens if we werent involved in all those conflicts? Not just for the locals, but us and the rest of the world. Despite us being in those fights, and many others, the last 70 years since the rise of NATO, and particularly since the 90s, and the fall of the Soviets, you have seen an unprecedented peaceful period. And I think it's impossible to say that if the US wasnt interfering militarily as we were that that peace would have existed. That peace brought stability, trade, exchange of ideas, which definitely helped us.

Our dominance and enforcement of the petrodollars has absolutely increased our quality of life back home. Our money goes farther than it should on the international market which has untold benefits for us. I think you are beginning to see what happens when our dominance slips. I dont think it's a mistake or coincidence that Putin began this under Obama/Biden, and has come in to finish under Biden/Kamala. We are weak on the international front and you saw a hot spot kick off that probably wouldnt had if we were perceived as being strong. And note Ukraine isnt a civil war, this is purely a result of foreign interference.
 
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#66,221
#66,221
Rasputin_Vol said:
Since when has this been official US policy? Or for that matter, of what significance is a border change in Eastern Europe of importance to a country in North America?
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Are we going to have to teach you the history of World War I, World War Two, and the Cold War? Don’t act like we’re not invested now in the affairs of Europe. Last couple of times wars kicked off there eventually forced us to act. I’d rather be leading than reacting.
 
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#66,222
#66,222
Burhead said:
Are we going to have to teach you the history of World War I, World War Two, and the Cold War? Don’t act like we’re not invested now in the affairs of Europe. Last couple of times wars kicked off there eventually forced us to act. I’d rather be leading than reacting.
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At what point will Europe pull up their loins and take care of their own business? We are not the baby sitter or police force for Europe. We have our own issues here.

We never should have gotten involved in either World War.
 
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