War in Ukraine

#66,252
#66,252
Rasputin_Vol said:
Between 2014 and 2022, the US built the second best army in the Europe. Put Ukraine's army of February 2022 against any other European NATO army and they would like win... Turkiye may have been their only true peer.
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I'm not on board with Zelenski is better than Putin. They are the same to me. 🖕 Them both
 
#66,256
#66,256
Rasputin_Vol said:
Between 2014 and 2022, the US built the second best army in the Europe. Put Ukraine's army of February 2022 against any other European NATO army and they would like win... Turkiye may have been their only true peer.
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Nonsense.

Us military aid to Ukraine from 2014-2021 was $2.5 billion, total, for the entire 8 year period.


U.S. Military Aid to Ukraine: A Silver Bullet?
 
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#66,257
#66,257
lawgator1 said:
Odd. Why is "End Wokeness" taking a pro-Russian position? On something unrelated to "wokeness."
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Its not a pro-Russian position. It is pro-American. We are flushing money down the toilet in a conflict that is not winnable and that isn't even our business.
 
#66,258
#66,258
lawgator1 said:
To follow up:

Putin Wants You to Think He’s an Anti-Woke Crusader

This is more manipulation by Putin. Ally himself with Trump, DeSantis, and the GOP and make US support for Ukraine a partisan issue, rather than one of our own national security. This is very consistent with what he's done in the past, especially vis-a-vis Trump.
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Explain how Ukraine's border with Russia is a bigger national security concern than our own border with Mexico. You all on the left stomped your feet like school kids over Trump building a $5-10 billion wall yet are more than willing to give Ukraine 10X that amount.
 
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#66,259
#66,259
Orangeburst said:
Why..because it is a defensive treaty? It could be argued that Poland would provoke Article 5 if attacked on their soil. Not to mention the permanent US bases in Poland that could incur loses and damages.
Regardless, this has disaster probabilities written all over it.
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Article 5 isn't a binding agreement to jump in and fight by all members.
 
#66,265
#66,265
Rasputin_Vol said:
Explain how Ukraine's border with Russia is a bigger national security concern than our own border with Mexico. You all on the left stomped your feet like school kids over Trump building a $5-10 billion wall yet are more than willing to give Ukraine 10X that amount.
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I get it, but I would trade some white guys wearing dresses for some Mexican guys wearing pants.
 
#66,266
#66,266
TVOLS said:
I believe it’s a grey area. Poland would not be attacking Russia. If sovereign country of Ukraine ask for ground assistance and Poland commits forces then their coming to the aid of a neighboring country which is not Russia. Russia on the other hand broadens the war outside of Ukraine would be the aggressor. This is probably discussed more in detail in article 5 which I am probably wrong, but how I would see it.

Edit: I would see it this way just to end this war in less than 6 months inside Ukraine.
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Unless Poland is attacked first it wouldnt trigger article 5 if they joined a fight. They would be going to fight Russia, and thus Russia would be defending itself against Poland while simultaneously attacking Ukraine.

Now I still think you would see some participation from some NATO nations despite there being no Article 5. And it would likely be the same type of mission creep.

First it's just support. Then maybe some operators, or direct air defense support. Then maybe the navy gets drug in to protect our/their waters. Air mission expands from defending to attacking. The Marines get called up to secure some important town. Then the army has full artillery operations, and eventually the infantry show up.

Best bet is to stay the eff out.
 
#66,267
#66,267
Septic said:
It's an extremely lazy false dichotomy.
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Not when we just dodged a default. If we were cash rich or floating even it would be a false dichotomy. As we are +50% over budget and facing a new default in 2 years owing 4 trillion more dollars, it applies.

That debt and our nations credit absolutely impacts peoples ability to buy food. And it also directly impacts our economy and another recession.
 
#66,268
#66,268
LouderVol said:
Not when we just dodged a default. If we were cash rich or floating even it would be a false dichotomy. As we are +50% over budget and facing a new default in 2 years owing 4 trillion more dollars, it applies.

That debt and our nations credit absolutely impacts peoples ability to buy food. And it also directly impacts our economy and another recession.
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Nah.

The default drama was partisan brinksmanship and had nothing to do with fiscal responsibility. WE ALL KNEW they were going to figure it out - they always do. It was just a matter of who was going to cram in the most pork and get away with it.

The false dichotomy was in that there was the implication that the money and value of the equipment being sent to Ukraine would have been spent on feeding the homeless instead. It wouldn't have.

Unless a Javelin missile can be prepared and served at a soup kitchen.
 
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#66,269
#66,269
FyKkNgMXoAAiqSl
 
#66,270
#66,270
vols40 said:
Thanks for responding. I should have been more clear as south Korea is the one that is better. Where we differ is that immediately after the Vietnam war there were countless vulnerable people who there's no way to know how things turned out. You are right they are better now but that is despite anything we did. That lost 58,000 Americans for what? $$$ Evil money. I disagree on Iraq because it 100% lead to all of the problems that arose from Isis. Afghanistan was eerily similar to Vietnam. For what? I have no answer for this. Finally I respectfully disagree at least in part on Ukraine being a civil war and maybe it's just semantics. But there are large pockets of Russians that live there. Similar to what Yugoslavia what through.

Have dear friends who were refugees from that disaster. Imagine one day a neighbor you have eaten dinner with countless times all of a sudden are walking down your street with guns and no longer interested in dinner.

Again I appreciate the back and forth but Ukraine is a corrupt place. I can't change that. It doesn't mean I don't have empathy for citizens who are innocent. But this country has way more internal problems that we could make serious inroads on before we get involved in a conflict that could escalate into WWIII involving a man with nuclear capabilities and is at the very least less than trustworthy.
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The people of Ukraine don't want Russia, even the ethnic Russians. Even Ras and somewhat Putin have admitted that the Russians vastly overestimated how much local support they would get when they invaded. There wasn't any fighting until the Russians started sending in their operators and mercenaries. The only reason the fight didn't end back in 2014/2015 was because Russia got directly involved even back then. There is a reason the only places you are seeing "support for Russia" are the places that Russia directly controls and has military assets in to control the population. Just look at them "annexing" parts of Ukraine. They held votes to claim the whole area, even though they didn't control the whole area, and couldn't even actually hold a vote in the whole area. At the very least any one with critical thinking would admit that the Russian "annex" only applies to the land they held at the time. But they don't, they used that clearly sham vote, to claim ownership over the whole area, even the parts that didn't vote and were held by Ukraine. Neighbor didn't turn on neighbor in Ukraine, the armed man walking down the street was a Russian soldier who crossed the border, not some local with an old Ak47 they dug out from their floorboards.

Russia has purely been after a land grab. Hard to argue Crimea was any part of a civil war when Russia "annexed" them immediately.
 
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#66,272
#66,272
Rasputin_Vol said:
Those "Western values"... Sounds like a personal threat issued to Musk.
"six ways to Sunday..."

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hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

the fact that you go out of your way to post this obvious of bs speaks quiet lowly of your consideration of the truth. The guy literally uses a winky face emoji at the end of the alleged threat. and then there is the whole last paragraph.

as I continue to say you don't care one lick about the truth. you will believe, and apparently post, ANYTHING if you think it makes the west looks bad.
 
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#66,273
#66,273
Septic said:
Nah.

The default drama was partisan brinksmanship and had nothing to do with fiscal responsibility. WE ALL KNEW they were going to figure it out - they always do. It was just a matter of who was going to cram in the most pork and get away with it.

The false dichotomy was in that there was the implication that the money and value of the equipment being sent to Ukraine would have been spent on feeding the homeless instead. It wouldn't have.

Unless a Javelin missile can be prepared and served at a soup kitchen.
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except they didn't figure anything out. we still owe the same amount of money. there is no plan to pay it off. and the only adjustment was to reduce the projected GROWTH of the debt by 1%......considering its a projection, the actuality will be much different. kicking the can down the road doesn't fix the inherent problem.

I don't think the meme mentioned giving the homeless anything, but was saying the person couldn't AFFORD groceries. and again yes that money and value of weapons does impact American's ability to afford food. the inflation is a kick in the nuts to people buying groceries, and that inflation doesn't come from cow farts, it comes from the government overspending on things like foreign aid; and even the welfare that does actually feed the homeless. the pending uncertainty brought about by the unresolved debt/default issue definitely puts a damper on people's spending and the economy in general. And whenever it comes time to face that music that depression will absolutely devastate people's ability to pay for food.

if you can't admit the clear link in the two you are being incredibly intellectually dishonest.
 
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