War in Ukraine

#66,152
#66,152
Velo Vol said:
Both sides are losers in this war but Ukraine didn't have a choice but fight it.
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Exactly. Ukraine didnt start the fight. They cant pick up their ball and go home like Russia can.

I wonder if either side would accept a "reset" peace. Borders go back to where they should be, Russia doesnt pay any reparations, face any war crime charges, sanctions lifted etc.
 
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#66,154
#66,154
WBO said:
Keeping waiting to hear that Prigozhin has checked into a hospital for some treatment.

You know what happens then (actually I hear they put Raz in the room with the offending party and after 15 minutes of his babble, death begins looking pretty good)?
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Offender: "Oh Death! - where is thine sweet kiss?"
 
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#66,155
#66,155
Burhead said:
The front is stable, they’ve lost no major centers of population, and Kyiv/Kharkiv still stands. So still being in the fight after a year is absolutely a win. Russia actively controls what 20% (?) of Ukraine? Wish the Afghans had this fighting spirit and backbone the Ukrainians have or we wouldn’t have wasted billions of dollars and American blood.
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Here again. The Russians are fighting a war of attrition. Territory is secondary to destroying men and equipment.
 
#66,157
#66,157
LouderVol said:
Uhhh. That would be Russia who is losing by your definition. 450 days and squat.

They failed to take Kiev, they failed to create a land bridge to Transnistria. They've lost the two most major cities they took early in the fight, Kharkiv and Kherson. They still dont fully control the land they "annexed". They have had to conscript 2 or 3 times as many men as they started out with. They still dont have air control, if anything they have even less with the air defense systems continuing to shoot down some missiles. They are having to dig out tanks from the 70s for front line usage, they are digging out tanks from the 50s to use as artillery.

Ukraine is the defender and the weaker side. The fact that they havent folded is winning. The fact they are even able to seriously talk about a counteroffensive is a win. The fact they still have any anti-air/missile defense is a win. HIMARs still existing is a win.

I always like putting this in football terms. Russia is TAMU last year playing App State. Yeah it may turn out differently, but the fact we are this far into the game and App State is still hanging around makes TAMU look bad. It's a one possession game, with plenty of time on the clock, and Ukraine has the ball. No reason to assume they have lost just yet.
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This far in the game all you know is what the corrupt media is telling you. Corruption (Zelenski) vs Corruption (Putin) zero interest to the United States. Less than zero. Ukraine is a 💩 hole now as it was last February and as it was pre 2014. So there is no winner here. It may not be likely but Russia could end this anytime they want. And that is of zero consequence to America.
So support sides in this if you need but Ukraine "winning" the media in this conflict is good for no one.
 
#66,158
#66,158
Burhead said:
The front is stable, they’ve lost no major centers of population, and Kyiv/Kharkiv still stands. So still being in the fight after a year is absolutely a win. Russia actively controls what 20% (?) of Ukraine? Wish the Afghans had this fighting spirit and backbone the Ukrainians have or we wouldn’t have wasted billions of dollars and American blood.
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You truly think that the Hawks in this country were not going to drag out the war on terror? Vietnam lasted as long as it did because corrupt people got paid. And if waste and abuse is big thing for you then why was accountability for money spent "helping Ukraine" left out of the latest aid (omnibus this past December)

That's right it's isn't good for business
 
#66,159
#66,159
LouderVol said:
Exactly. Ukraine didnt start the fight. They cant pick up their ball and go home like Russia can.

I wonder if either side would accept a "reset" peace. Borders go back to where they should be, Russia doesnt pay any reparations, face any war crime charges, sanctions lifted etc.
Click to expand...

The US and the rest of Europe will not allow this
 
#66,160
#66,160
vols40 said:
This far in the game all you know is what the corrupt media is telling you. Corruption (Zelenski) vs Corruption (Putin) zero interest to the United States. Less than zero. Ukraine is a 💩 hole now as it was last February and as it was pre 2014. So there is no winner here. It may not be likely but Russia could end this anytime they want. And that is of zero consequence to America.
So support sides in this if you need but Ukraine "winning" the media in this conflict is good for no one.
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I beg to differ. We have vested interests in maintaining the peace in Europe and preventing the changing of borders by force after fighting two destructive world wars on the continent.
 
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#66,163
#66,163
vols40 said:
This far in the game all you know is what the corrupt media is telling you. Corruption (Zelenski) vs Corruption (Putin) zero interest to the United States. Less than zero. Ukraine is a 💩 hole now as it was last February and as it was pre 2014. So there is no winner here. It may not be likely but Russia could end this anytime they want. And that is of zero consequence to America.
So support sides in this if you need but Ukraine "winning" the media in this conflict is good for no one.
Click to expand...
You havent been around long enough to see it but I have always thought Russia was going to win. By now my definition of win has changed dramatically. From getting everything Russia wanted, to they may still hold onto some Ukrainian territory, including Crimea, at the end of this.

My only support is based purely on the bully getting a bloody nose. I dont particularly care who it is. Two bad guys beating each other up I am going to cheer for the smaller bad guy defending his own territory.

Again if you actually cared about having a discussion you could easily go back in this thread and seen that I have consistently said we should be giving Ukraine nothing. I would have no problem selling them weapons, gear, planes, tanks etc. But our politicians being corrupt aholes looking out for our MIC doesnt change the definition of who is a bad guy over there in this conflict. I am capable of holding two different thoughts in my head simulatenously, something that is apparently beyond Ras, you, and the crowd of Putin fan boys.
 
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#66,164
#66,164
Interesting that it's starting to sound like Ukraine blew up the pipeline with possible help from the West. Oops.

As Yoda would say, is very strong the lying.

This won't go over well with the Europeans. At least it can be argued it's for the greater good like the Boshevik argument. Luther often uses this.
 
#66,169
#66,169
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#66,170
#66,170
NorthDallas40 said:
“There is no evidence suggesting Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky or the Ukrainian government were responsible, officials said, though intelligence suggests the perpetrators opposed Russian President Vladimir Putin.”

Pro-Ukrainian /= Ukrainian Government
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That is nothing but spin. Tomato To-mato. It would take resources.
 
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#66,171
#66,171
Orangeburst said:
That is nothing but spin. Tomato To-mato. It would take resources.
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Couldn’t disagree more if I wanted to. There are a huge number of people and factions that are “pro Ukrainian” and anti-Putin in this current situation with absolutely zero connection to the Ukrainian government
 
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#66,172
#66,172
NorthDallas40 said:
Couldn’t disagree more if I wanted to. There are a huge number of people and factions that are “pro Ukrainian” in this current situation with absolutely zero connection to the Ukrainian government
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We can just disagree then. Who would these people be?
 
#66,173
#66,173
I highly doubt Russia blew the dam just for heck of it. Ukraine did start the offensive or probed the line somewhere heavily to see the reaction. Especially after the news out of Ukraine the offensive hasn’t started. I see where Putin is now sending help for flood victims.
 
#66,174
#66,174
Orangeburst said:
We can just disagree then. Who would these people be?
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Ukrainian sympathizers. That’s it. It could be one or more of any nation actors to privately operating groups. When I happened I said Ukraine would be the clear culprit but how could they pull it off? I’d this theory is correct then some private group was able to pull it off clearly.

Being able to dive a couple of hundred feet or have submersibles capable of delivering the charges are specialized but not unheard of capabilities. I’d guess every large oil platform maintenance company has this kind of capability.
 
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#66,175
#66,175
Burhead said:
The front is stable, they’ve lost no major centers of population, and Kyiv/Kharkiv still stands. So still being in the fight after a year is absolutely a win. Russia actively controls what 20% (?) of Ukraine? Wish the Afghans had this fighting spirit and backbone the Ukrainians have or we wouldn’t have wasted billions of dollars and American blood.
Click to expand...

Ukraine, Israel, and S Korea seem to be the only worthwhile projects we've militarily supported during times of war - other than world wars. The interesting part is that we've had boots on the ground for most of the losers we've supported, but Ukraine and Israel with help did what was needed with aid, and a thoroughly down S Korea once picked up and dusted off has turned out very well. You get the impression (including experience) that most of the Middle East, large parts of Asia, and Africa and S America in general are simply going to be wasted effort to support militarily. Only a fool would have gone into Afghanistan.
 
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