War in Ukraine

[hog88]

And BTW, what's happening with the spring offensive? How's that going, Ukraine should be recapturing a lot of ground now that the Wagner group has left.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

How about some detail on what needs to happen to end martial law, complete withdrawal of Russian troops? A cease fire? What exactly needs to happen before you restore your citizens franchise? This war could last a few more years.

GWBush marked the end of hostilities in Iraq in 2003, I think. An interim govt was installed but free elections didn't occur until 2005.

Have I mentioned wars are messy?

Even though we had massive control in Iraq and superiority, we couldn't arrange elections for years.

Why do you think that was?

 

[LouderVol]

Both parties would have conniption fits but that shouldn't matter. As soon as we the citizens go along with suspending and election we give the govt cover to do again and again. What if the war lasts another 2-3 years, how long should the citizens be held hostage by the people who were in power when the war began?

no required quorum?

I have always thought that is something that was missing from our election system, its present in the legislature. I would think it would be equally wise to have it in popular votes too.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

You are arguing with walls.

They were happy and willing to give up their constitutional rights during Covid.

Now go to work and pay your taxes so we can fund this war in Ukraine.

I'm not happy about any of that.

I'm REALLY not happy with Putin thinking he can annex pieces of the Baltic region every few years and the west won't do anything about it.

In the end, that strengthens and emboldens Russia, sends a poor message to China (who is trying to do their own annexing in the South China Sea) and weakens America's position in the world.

As much as I want to think about our country alone, if you let the evil get stronger, eventually it will threaten you.

 

[hog88]

GWBush marked the end of hostilities in Iraq in 2003, I think. An interim govt was installed but free elections didn't occur until 2005.

Have I mentioned wars are messy?

Even though we had massive control in Iraq and superiority, we couldn't arrange elections for years.

Why do you think that was?

Elections were held in Iraq January 30th, 2005. 1 year and 8 months after Bush declared mission accomplished and in that time a constitution was written and an insurgency was happening. It was not "years".

 

[ButchPlz]

Elections were held in Iraq January 30th, 2005. 1 year and 8 months after Bush declared mission accomplished and in that time a constitution was written and an insurgency was happening. It was not "years".

Again, to your point, third world/lesser developed countries are able to hold snap elections (complete with ID verification, manning voting centers, counts, etc.) on the regular.

 

[LouderVol]

Louder a leftie! Where you been boy?

its how I know I am on a the correct track. I am a fascist to the lefties, and a communist to the righties.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Elections were held in Iraq January 30th, 2005. 1 year and 8 months after Bush declared mission accomplished and in that time a constitution was written and an insurgency was happening. It was not "years".

Okay, have hostilities been declared over in Ukraine?

Hardly. It's very fluid as the Wagner madness suggests and calling for elections is pretty useless, really, as Zelensky has all the cards..... he's keeping Ukraine in a war that many thought was lost when Russia first approached Kyiv.

Again, do I think Zelensky is a "good guy?" Not at all. But he's in the pocket of someone other than Putin. Russian expansion cannot be tolerated. It's not in the interest of the free world to let them get stronger. Just as with China, we don't want them to get the idea we'll just roll over and let them do as they please because it's not on our doorstep.

 

[BeardedVol]

So where did the Putinistas finally land on this, failed CIA op, or Russian 4-D chess psyop?

 

[LouderVol]

I understand that being invaded and fighting for survival of your nation means sacrifices in rights but Zelinskis' comments don't sit well with me.



How about some detail on what needs to happen to end martial law, complete withdrawal of Russian troops? A cease fire? What exactly needs to happen before you restore your citizens franchise? This war could last a few more years.

you never addressed what happens to the 25%?

They hold an election within the 75%, and then retake the 25% before the new term starts, you have then denied those people their rights to vote. That seems like a pretty big issue that needs to be addressed. Seems like your idea of holding partial election provides just as much government corruption as not holding an election does. War ends tomorrow, martial law ends across the country, but come time for the elections, Zelensky isn't polling well in western Ukraine because the war didn't impact them much, and so Zelensky just finds a reason to declare martial law, and wins the election in the rest. That doesn't seem like a restoration of rights.

And seeing as how its in their Constitution I don't see how following their Constitution is denying them their rights. Their rights aren't ours. they don't have the same standards we do..

 

[hog88]

Again, to your point, third world/lesser developed countries are able to hold snap elections (complete with ID verification, manning voting centers, counts, etc.) on the regular.

But oh man, if you question or disagree with Zelinksi or our Ukraine policy you’re a Putin supporter.

 

[hog88]

you never addressed what happens to the 25%?

They hold an election within the 75%, and then retake the 25% before the new term starts, you have then denied those people their rights to vote. That seems like a pretty big issue that needs to be addressed. Seems like your idea of holding partial election provides just as much government corruption as not holding an election does. War ends tomorrow, martial law ends across the country, but come time for the elections, Zelensky isn't polling well in western Ukraine because the war didn't impact them much, and so Zelensky just finds a reason to declare martial law, and wins the election in the rest. That doesn't seem like a restoration of rights.

And seeing as how it’s in their Constitution I don't see how following their Constitution is denying them their rights. Their rights aren't ours. they don't have the same standards we do..

Since when is war or the world fair? I can’t support denying rights to 75% of the population because 25% can’t participate. Plus their constitution doesn’t require martial law be declared in the whole country. What’s the purpose of continuing martial law now? It doesn’t apply (can’t be enforced) in the occupied areas.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

So where did the Putinistas finally land on this, failed CIA op, or Russian 4-D chess psyop?

In keeping with the Godfather theme, and lightening my own mood here, these guys are like Carlo, Connie's husband. "Don't tell me you're innocent because it insults my intelligence......"

Sucks to be them but military politics, especially in dictatorships, is a minefield.

 

[ButchPlz]

But oh man, if you question or disagree with Zelinksi or our Ukraine policy you’re a Putin supporter.

How he suddenly became a god despite leading one of the world's most corrupt countries (which everyone would have agreed about before this) blows my mind. The goldfish memory people in this country have is astounding.

 

[hog88]

How he suddenly became a god despite leading one of the world's most corrupt countries (which everyone would have agreed about before this) blows my mind. The goldfish memory people in this country have is astounding.

He is worshipped which I can’t understand.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

But oh man, if you question or disagree with Zelinksi or our Ukraine policy you’re a Putin supporter.

So what is your idea? Let Putin have Ukraine like we did Crimea? Just let Russia slowly creep around usurping little countries because "it's not our problem?"

You do realize eventually the Europeans will begin to doubt our willingness and ability to stand up to Russia. Is that in America's long-term interest?

Is allowing China to usurp the South China Sea in our interest or should we challenge their claims?

As much as I'd want to only defend our soil and our soil alone, we need to be the leaders of the world or someone else will be.

 

[hog88]

In case anyone has information.

And BTW, what's happening with the spring offensive? How's that going, Ukraine should be recapturing a lot of ground now that the Wagner group has left.

 

[hog88]

So what is your idea? Let Putin have Ukraine like we did Crimea? Just let Russia slowly creep around usurping little countries because "it's not our problem?"

You do realize eventually the Europeans will begin to doubt our willingness and ability to stand up to Russia. Is that in America's long-term interest?

Is allowing China to usurp the South China Sea in our interest or should we challenge their claims?

As much as I'd want to only defend our soil and our soil alone, we need to be the leaders of the world or someone else will be.

My plan would be to sell European countries all the war material they want to provide Ukraine and for us to share all appropriate intelligence to Ukraine.

This is a European problem so Europe should be footing the bill.

 

[MOOOOONEY]

I'm not happy about any of that.

I'm REALLY not happy with Putin thinking he can annex pieces of the Baltic region every few years and the west won't do anything about it.

In the end, that strengthens and emboldens Russia, sends a poor message to China (who is trying to do their own annexing in the South China Sea) and weakens America's position in the world.

As much as I want to think about our country alone, if you let the evil get stronger, eventually it will threaten you.

Russia wasn’t a threat to the United States when the Biden administration gave the ok for their pipeline that eventually funded their war on Ukraine.

Let Europe handle Russia and let’s secure our own borders.

 

[tvolsfan]

Blah, blah.

As long as they are at war Zelinski is unchallenged with almost unchecked power so what is his motivation to end the war? Let's say it drags on for another 2-3 years, static like it has since the winter. When would you say enough is enough, end martial law and hold elections?

lol

 

[tvolsfan]

Russia wasn’t a threat to the United States when the Biden administration gave the ok for their pipeline that eventually funded their war on Ukraine.

Let Europe handle Russia and let’s secure our own borders.

That pipeline never got turned on.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

My plan would be to sell European countries all the war material they want to provide Ukraine and for us to share all appropriate intelligence to Ukraine.

This is a European problem so Europe should be footing the bill.

It's about money for you? You think it really IS just a European problem? Do you think the issues in Asia are just a Taiwan or Japan problem?

You think the world is that unconnected? Interesting idea, but what's happening in Africa, Europe, Asia, etc has a direct affect on our economy. I like isolationism as much as possible too but we can't live like the world economy is in the 1800s.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Russia wasn’t a threat to the United States when the Biden administration gave the ok for their pipeline that eventually funded their war on Ukraine.

Let Europe handle Russia and let’s secure our own borders.

Europe has proven they can't handle Russia repeatedly over the years. So let them just learn Russian?

Like it or not, if left alone Europe won't stand up to Russia. Never could, never will. Nor can Japan and Taiwan stand up to China (since we neutered Japan.)

I'm not certain we want Europe to handle this. They've historically sucked vs Russia.

 

[Hunerwadel]

Do you think you are making a point?

That at most is 25% of Ukraine, so why can't the other 75% of the citizens not under Russian occupation vote? People in Afghanistan stood in line for hours, were fired on and under numerous threats of terrorist attacks yet they still held elections.

IMO a flawed or unfair election may be worse than postponing one. We have seen what can happen when the loser throws a fit.

 

[LouderVol]

Since when is war or the world fair? I can’t support denying rights to 75% of the population because 25% can’t participate. Plus their constitution doesn’t require martial law be declared in the whole country. What’s the purpose of continuing martial law now? It doesn’t apply (can’t be enforced) in the occupied areas.

I would have to read up on Ukraine's constitution but I would imagine there are some similarities with other countries. Allowing interfacing between the military and civilian infrastructure, ensuring military access/use of materials & assets, allows them to evacuate civilians, or set curfews if they know a military action is going to take place at a certain time. I would imagine without martial law their civilian response to any missile attacks, which are still hitting the whole country, are much more restricted; and is any military commander really going to allow the assumption that the Russian's won't open a new front somewhere else jeopardize his defense of the whole country?

2800 hundred miles of Ukraine's 4400 (63%) mile long border is shared with Russian controlled territory, Russia, Belarus, and Transnistria, and thats without taking into account the changes at the front with Crimea going from a zero to a couple hundred miles. Then you have whatever stretch of coastline Russia has access to with the Black Sea. and Russia has deployed far reaching attacks with paratroopers or armored columns in this war, no military commander is going to assume that Russia won't deploy that same strategy in the future at some point. Point being is that Ukraine is having to defend way more than 25%. They have lost 25% and probably actively having defensive troops in at least another 1/3 where I would argue martial law is justified. thats almost 60% of the country.

so again what's your quorum for a vote? 42% sans martial law is enough to call it a valid election?

I don't see any way a military leader, or even national leader, is going to make the assumptions you think they should about this war, in regards to picking and choosing martial law, if they are responsible for the actual lives in the country.

I would look at some type of compromise, but it doesn't seem like their Constitution has provisions for it, and making that compromise would seem to be a unilateral expansion of his powers for Zelensky to make. I would say something like you hold elections where you can, as scheduled, for however long the war goes on. But once the war is over you have a full election in the whole country, even if it upsets the rhythm of the terms.