War in Ukraine

[Septic]

The same way we conduct elections now. Those that can and want to, vote.

Is that right? Sounds easy.

 

[Rocky_Top_Vol13]

 

[hog88]

Is that right? Sounds easy.

Do you think you are making a point?

That at most is 25% of Ukraine, so why can't the other 75% of the citizens not under Russian occupation vote? People in Afghanistan stood in line for hours, were fired on and under numerous threats of terrorist attacks yet they still held elections.

 

[Septic]

Do you think you are making a point?

That at most is 25% of Ukraine, so why can't the other 75% of the citizens not under Russian occupation vote? People in Afghanistan stood in line for hours, were fired on and under numerous threats of terrorist attacks yet they still held elections.

Yes, and it's a good point.

If 25% of the U.S. wasn't able to vote and your choice lost - would you accept it? Of course not.

As it is only accusations of fraud without evidence are enough for people to question the outcome, forget about millions of actual votes being silenced.

What if the electorate of Texas, Florida and Tennessee were suddenly unable to vote for POTUS, would you be OK with the outcome of the election if your guy didn't win? Be honest.

 

[evillawyer]

When parody is too close to the truth.

 

[hog88]

Yes, and it's a good point.

If 25% of the U.S. wasn't able to vote and your choice lost - would you accept it? Of course not.

As it is only accusations of fraud without evidence are enough for people to question the outcome, forget about millions of actual votes being silenced.

What if the electorate of Texas, Florida and Tennessee were suddenly unable to vote for POTUS, would you be OK with the outcome of the election if your guy didn't win? Be honest.

Asked and answered a page or two back.

How long do you suspend elections? What if the war lasts another 2-3 years? Then the rebuild, people coming back or accounting for the displaced/dead? What's an acceptable delay in holding elections, 4-5 years? What's the incentive for the current leaders to wrap this up as quick as possible if doing so could lead to their ouster?

Do you really want to give the people in power at the start of the war the ability to stay in power indefinitely? Think about what you're advocating.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Asked and answered a page or two back.

How long do you suspend elections? What if the war lasts another 2-3 years? Then the rebuild, people coming back or accounting for the displaced/dead? What's an acceptable delay in holding elections, 4-5 years? What's the incentive for the current leaders to wrap this up as quick as possible if doing so could lead to their ouster?

Do you really want to give the people in power at the start of the war the ability to stay in power indefinitely? Think about what you're advocating.

Zelensky isn't responsible for the Constitution of Ukraine which states (scroll down to Article 19 after you translate) that elections won't be held during martial law. I believe that was adopted in 1999.

The lack of elections is unfortunate, I agree, but I also agree that martial law is needed when your country is being invaded. If Putin would stop "trying to put the band back together" in the Baltic region then martial law could be lifted.

The lack of elections is on Putin, not Zelensky. It's right there in the Constitution of Ukraine.

Про правовий режим воєнного стану

 

[hog88]

Zelensky isn't responsible for the Constitution of Ukraine which states (scroll down to Article 19 after you translate) that elections won't be held during martial law. I believe that was adopted in 1999.

The lack of elections is unfortunate, I agree, but I also agree that martial law is needed when your country is being invaded. If Putin would stop "trying to put the band back together" in the Baltic region then martial law could be lifted.

The lack of elections is on Putin, not Zelensky. It's right there in the Constitution of Ukraine.

Про правовий режим воєнного стану

Why is martial law needed in the unoccupied areas? To me a govt continuing with a declaration of martial law is more afraid of it's citizens than of it's external enemies. Read your link, Zelinski has the power to lift martial law in any area at any time so for the 3/4s of the country not occupied he could lift the ML order and hold elections if he wished.

 

[Hunerwadel]

Did you vote for Obama?

"After all, you don't call Russia our No. 1 enemy -- not Al-Qaida, Russia -- unless you're still stuck in a Cold War mind warp," Obama said, alluding to Republican rival Mitt Romney.

There was a pause for a while when Russia seemed less dangerous but I've always considered them our #1 enemy.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Why is martial law needed in the unoccupied areas? To me a govt continuing with a declaration of martial law is more afraid of it's citizens than of it's external enemies. Read your link, Zelinski has the power to lift martial law in any area at any time so for the 3/4s of the country not occupied he could lift the ML order and hold elections if he wished.

It's a damn war. Wars are fluid. Zelensky and the military has better things to do then pick and choose areas. "I know that area was safe, but now it's a hotspot, so back to martial law there. This area has cooled, no more martial law."

It's a damn war. You act as though communications in the country are normal, not disrupted, that word of martial law lifted, replaced, lifted again, or whatever would be instant.

It isn't a video game. Their country is being invaded. It's not a big country. Russia COULD start rolling tanks in from several directions at any moment.

 

[hog88]

It's a damn war. Wars are fluid. Zelensky and the military has better things to do then pick and choose areas. "I know that area was safe, but now it's a hotspot, so back to martial law there. This area has cooled, no more martial law."

It's a damn war. You act as though communications in the country are normal, not disrupted, that word of martial law lifted, replaced, lifted again, or whatever would be instant.

It isn't a video game. Their country is being invaded. It's not a big country. Russia COULD start rolling tanks in from several directions at any moment.

For 75% of the country things are fairly normal. Zelinski has time to fly around the world begging for money so he has time to think about the rights of his citizens.

The lines were stable for over 6 months, so it wasn't fluid like you think.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

For 75% of the country things are fairly normal. Zelinski has time to fly around the world begging for money so he has time to think about the rights of his citizens.

The lines were stable for over 6 months, so it wasn't fluid like you think.

Just a few weeks ago there were rocket explosions in Kyiv suburbs, but things are "normal" there.

It's a war. I'm unsure why you're defending Putin. He could end this failed land grab tomorrow and elections would occur within a few months.

Place the blame where it belongs. On the aggressor, not the people defending their country.

 

[hog88]

Just a few weeks ago there were rocket explosions in Kyiv suburbs, but things are "normal" there.

It's a war. I'm unsure why you're defending Putin. He could end this failed land grab tomorrow and elections would occur within a few months.

Place the blame where it belongs. On the aggressor, not the people defending their country.

Where do you get the idea I'm defending Putin or his war? That's asinine.

The problem is people like you who automatically decree someone is supporting Putin when they disagree with anything Ukraine related. I fully disagree with Zelinski suspending elections yet I do hope Ukraine prevails in the war. And I will make a wager that if Russia withdrew tomorrow Zelinski wouldn't schedule elections for at least another year.

So how long is it acceptable for Ukraine to maintain martial law and keep it's citizens from voting?

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Where do you get the idea I'm defending Putin or his war? That's asinine.

The problem is people like you who automatically decree someone is supporting Putin when they disagree with anything Ukraine related. I fully disagree with Zelinski suspending elections yet I do hope Ukraine prevails in the war. And I will make a wager that if Russia withdrew tomorrow Zelinski wouldn't schedule elections for at least another year.

So how long is it acceptable for Ukraine to maintain martial law and keep it's citizens from voting?

Kyiv is about 500 miles from Bakhmut. 500 miles. Even the lousy Russian army can eat up 500 miles pretty quickly if they mount a multi-pronged attack on Kyiv. Kyiv is MUCH closer to Belarus and Russia.

You act as though Ukraine is this massive territory. It's the size of Illinois or something. It's facing a poorly run but large Russian army. An army that ground itself into Afghanistan for years making little progress. Russians are dumb like that.

I'm not a "Go Zelensky" kind of guy. He's as much a political opportunist as you'd expect in that region, but he's got a war to control. He's not my first choice for a human rights award....... no one in that region is..... but he's not the cause of the lack of elections in Ukraine. Putin is.

And Zelensky, if Russia stands down will be the most popular man in Ukraine. He'll hold elections ASAP because he's an opportunist. If Russia stands down, he'll be President easily. He'd not need fear an election. Get real.

 

[hog88]

Kyiv is about 500 miles from Bakhmut. 500 miles. Even the lousy Russian army can eat up 500 miles pretty quickly if they mount a multi-pronged attack on Kyiv. Kyiv is MUCH closer to Belarus and Russia.

You act as though Ukraine is this massive territory. It's the size of Illinois or something. It's facing a poorly run but large Russian army. An army that ground itself into Afghanistan for years making little progress. Russians are dumb like that.

I'm not a "Go Zelensky" kind of guy. He's as much a political opportunist as you'd expect in that region, but he's got a war to control. He's not my first choice for a human rights award....... no one in that region is..... but he's not the cause of the lack of elections in Ukraine. Putin is.

And Zelensky, if Russia stands down will be the most popular man in Ukraine. He'll hold elections ASAP because he's an opportunist. If Russia stands down, he'll be President easily. He'd not need fear an election. Get real.

How long? Come on, tell us how long without elections is acceptable? I read your link and nothing in it sets the parameters of exactly when martial law must be lifted.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

How long? Come on, tell us how long without elections is acceptable? I read your link and nothing in it sets the parameters of exactly when martial law must be lifted.

Wars are messy. South Vietnam survived on coups and assassinations for decades while we sacrificed 60k+ soldiers. America rolled along like South Vietnam was a fine country.

Zelensky is not perfect. He's probably a human rights nightmare once this is over but it's not over. It's a war. Wars are messy, as I said.

You're like some guy who is criticizing someone trying to save someone from drowning...... "Yeah, but your hair is out of place." Elections are important but they won't mean crap is Zelensky doesn't kick the Russians out of his country.

Criticize the guy who started this. Zelensky has repeatedly stated he'll not go after Russia is they'll leave. OF COURSE, there will be elections after the war is over....... if he loses, they won't matter. If he wins, he'll be President for as long as he wants.

You're ridiculous.

 

[hog88]

Wars are messy. South Vietnam survived on coups and assassinations for decades while we sacrificed 60k+ soldiers. America rolled along like South Vietnam was a fine country.

Zelensky is not perfect. He's probably a human rights nightmare once this is over but it's not over. It's a war. Wars are messy, as I said.

You're like some guy who is criticizing someone trying to save someone from drowning...... "Yeah, but your hair is out of place." Elections are important but they won't mean crap is Zelensky doesn't kick the Russians out of his country.

Criticize the guy who started this. Zelensky has repeatedly stated he'll not go after Russia is they'll leave. OF COURSE, there will be elections after the war is over....... if he loses, they won't matter. If he wins, he'll be President for as long as he wants.

You're ridiculous.

How long? This war will probably drag on another couple of years (too many people getting rich off of it) so how long would it be acceptable for all of the citizens of Ukraine to have their franchise taken away?

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

How long? This war will probably drag on another couple of years (too many people getting rich off of it) so how long would it be acceptable for all of the citizens of Ukraine to have their franchise taken away?

Wars are messy. You can't say, like Dick Cheney foolishly did, "they'll welcome us with open arms....." and set a timeline on a war. What is wrong with you?

You really are acting like this is a video game. No one can predict what the narcissistic idiot that is Putin and the hapless Russian army might do. No one can predict how much support and "shadow war" we will provide.

How long? When Putin leaves. Is there corruption in Ukraine on the Ukrainian side? Absolutely. Are there rapes, murders and all kinds of atrocities happening in Ukraine? Absolutely.

But by all means, let's line them up to vote......

 

[hog88]

Wars are messy. You can't say, like Dick Cheney foolishly did, "they'll welcome us with open arms....." and set a timeline on a war. What is wrong with you?

You really are acting like this is a video game. No one can predict what the narcissistic idiot that is Putin and the hapless Russian army might do. No one can predict how much support and "shadow war" we will provide.

How long? When Putin leaves. Is there corruption in Ukraine on the Ukrainian side? Absolutely. Are there rapes, murders and all kinds of atrocities happening in Ukraine? Absolutely.

But by all means, let's line them up to vote......

Blah, blah.

As long as they are at war Zelinski is unchallenged with almost unchecked power so what is his motivation to end the war? Let's say it drags on for another 2-3 years, static like it has since the winter. When would you say enough is enough, end martial law and hold elections?

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

How long? This war will probably drag on another couple of years (too many people getting rich off of it) so how long would it be acceptable for all of the citizens of Ukraine to have their franchise taken away?

For instance, in this war, who could've predicted Wagner forces would suddenly turn toward Russia? Perhaps the CIA and military had some hint but they certainly weren't sharing it on Volnation.

I'm not stupid enough to believe I can say, "Zelensky should hold elections" because I've no idea what will happen next month there......nor do you. I've no basis to give a timeline about elections there because 90% of what's REALLY going on there isn't (and shouldn't be) shared with you and I.

War is not pretty. It's not sane. It's not going to be "by the numbers" and clean hands will not make it home. It's dirty. It's evil. It requires the worst of humanity, but by all means....... let's toss an election in the middle of one.

 

[ButchPlz]

For 75% of the country things are fairly normal. Zelinski has time to fly around the world begging for money so he has time to think about the rights of his citizens.

The lines were stable for over 6 months, so it wasn't fluid like you think.

To reinforce some of your point we have a friend of a friend who has been with her elderly mom to her home in Kiev and back several times over the period of this conflict with no issues.

 

[hog88]

For instance, in this war, who could've predicted Wagner forces would suddenly turn toward Russia? Perhaps the CIA and military had some hint but they certainly weren't sharing it on Volnation.

I'm not stupid enough to believe I can say, "Zelensky should hold elections" because I've no idea what will happen next month there......nor do you. I've no basis to give a timeline about elections there because 90% of what's REALLY going on there isn't (and shouldn't be) shared with you and I.

War is not pretty. It's not sane. It's not going to be "by the numbers" and clean hands will not make it home. It's dirty. It's evil. It requires the worst of humanity, but by all means....... let's toss an election in the middle of one.

Wouldn't it have been easier to just have said, "for as long as Zelinski wants"?

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Blah, blah.

As long as they are at war Zelinski is unchallenged with almost unchecked power so what is his motivation to end the war? Let's say it drags on for another 2-3 years, static like it has since the winter. When would you say enough is enough, end martial law and hold elections?

Zelensky has every reason to end the war. I forget that ironworker/miner who stood up and led Poland, Walesa?, and became the toast of the free world.

Zelensky, if he beats the Russians, is an even bigger celebrity...... and yes, can and will get richer, as will his allies in Ukraine...... if he wins. The sooner, the better, because military politics is the most brutal and he could take a bullet from a strongman at any moment.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Wouldn't it have been easier to just have said, "for as long as Zelinski wants"?

As long as Putin wants. I doubt the Afghans were sad when the Russian army stopped.

Zelensky has zero ability to actually stop this war.

 

[hog88]

To reinforce some of your point we have a friend of a friend who has been with her elderly mom to her home in Kiev and back several times over the period of this conflict with no issues.

I understand that being invaded and fighting for survival of your nation means sacrifices in rights but Zelinskis' comments don't sit well with me.

Elections in Ukraine will be held in 2024 only if martial law is ended by then, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said in an interview with the BBC on June 22.

Zelenskyy emphasized that according to the Ukrainian constitution, no elections could be held in the country while martial law remains in effect.

How about some detail on what needs to happen to end martial law, complete withdrawal of Russian troops? A cease fire? What exactly needs to happen before you restore your citizens franchise? This war could last a few more years.