War in Ukraine

[BeardedVol]

Yes giving money or military aid to any other country is taking away from Americans. I don't care if its Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Japan, or some European nation in NATO. I am for cutting it all until we get our deficit under control. makes no sense to think we can help others when we can't even help our selves.

and you didn't explain how if we are giving 100 billion of our defense budget to Ukraine how we are replacing that money if the budget doesn't go up the same amount. I am willing to bet we are giving Ukraine more weapons, ammo, and equipment than would phase out in any given year, so its not a net-neutral exchange.

and I pointed how we aren't taking from other federal programs. Its called debt. we are going more and more into it. and we shouldn't be for Ukraine or any other nation. What do you think happens when we face the default again in 2025? you think all those credit score reductions aren't going to effect our nation? did you not see the hits to the stock market when this default was looming? I can tell you from first hand knowledge that several +$100 million dollar projects were scrapped because of the looming default and financial insecurity. And those were housing projects, and if I need to explain how a lack of housing is hurting this country I don't know what to tell you. We are on borrowed time, and instead of at least slowing down the deficit we have people like you cheering on as we speed up to the cliff.

and if you think it doesn't result in more taxes, as well as the indirect hits to our economy, you are pretty naïve. You think we would be hiring so many IRS agents and going after $600 Venmo accounts if we weren't hurting for money?

You can argue the merits of military aid, and foreign aid in general all day long, as to whether or not the American people see an commensurate ROI on that investment, but unless you can produce some tangible decrease in services that the Federal Government provides to the American people, that is a direct results of said foreign aid, it's a moot point as to the effect it has on the populace. We aren't changing our debt-funding model, regardless of whether we send aid to Ukraine, and in the grand scheme of that debt, it's pennies that you are quibbling over.

Our economy is maintained through stability, the cost of that stability, is the US presence around the world, NATO expenditures, and a large military budget to maintain that stability.

Peace has a price.

 

[BeardedVol]

our Founding Fathers specifically wanted us to stay out of European affairs.

The founding fathers couldn't have conceived of a post-industrial service-based economy that attempts to maximize high end services and exports, while importing cheap goods from the other side of the world.

There is no isolating the US from Europe or any other part of the world at this point.

 

[McDad]

The founding fathers couldn't have conceived of a post-industrial service-based economy that attempts to maximize high end services and exports, while importing cheap goods from the other side of the world.

There is no isolating the US from Europe or any other part of the world at this point.

Are you suggesting the FF were ignorant about international trade?

 

[NorthDallas40]

I unequivocally disagree with send troops, equipment, and money to Ukraine. Originally, Zelenski said he wanted no personnel sent to Ukraine to help. I respected that position.

On the bolded mcdaddio is that specific word usage worthy of note instead of say using the word or ?

 

[McDad]

On the bolded mcdaddio is that specific word usage worthy of note instead of say using the word or ?

Possibly.

I understand America has already sent money to Ukraine. Is that incorrect?

 

[BeardedVol]

Are you suggesting the FF were ignorant about international trade?

The level of trade?

Yes, the founding fathers had zero idea that in the future, we'd be importing nearly everything you find at your local Walmart, from the other side of the world.

Nor could they conceive of an economy, where the over 3/4 of the US GDP was provided by the service sector.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Possibly.

I understand America has already sent money to Ukraine. Is that incorrect?

Yes I believe they have. And as I’ve stated before I believe all cash should be coming from the EU. That’s their economic bloc and Ukraine is moving to join it.

And I’m not in favor of the reserve mobilization either if they are to go OCONUS as a part of their activation. If it’s related to CONUS work then possibly. And no US military personnel should be in harm’s way in fulfilling whatever support we provide either.

 

[McDad]

The level of trade?

Yes, the founding fathers had zero idea that in the future, we'd be importing nearly everything you find at your local Walmart, from the other side of the world.

Nor could they conceive of an economy, where the over 3/4 of the US GDP was provided by the service sector.

I can agree they may have never conceived of the scale of trade we enjoy. But cheap goods manufactured other places, cheap labor imported, etc didn't exceed their concepts.

 

[Hunerwadel]

Just saw in another thread, Biden is activating reserve forces because Zelenski has asked for more troop and weapon support.

I unequivocally disagree with send troops, equipment, and money to Ukraine. Originally, Zelenski said he wanted no personnel sent to Ukraine to help. I respected that position.

This is not our war. This is not our concern. There is nothing worth accomplishing to benefit America to justify pouring money, equipment, and american lives into the region.

These are two very poor, crap-hole countries which have nothing of value to offer us and we have no business interceding.

We're not sending troops to Ukraine. They are all support and logistics personnel and they're going to Europe. (NATO countries.)

 

[McDad]

We're not sending troops to Ukraine. They are all support and logistics personnel and they're going to Europe. (NATO countries.)

I'd prefer to not even do that. But that scenario is preferrable to our men and women in harm's way.

Let's hope it is as you say and not something which is transitory.

 

[LouderVol]

You do see how that’s not feasible In Todays world right?

Nope. we 100% could operate on our own. We have chosen not to.

 

[LouderVol]

You can argue the merits of military aid, and foreign aid in general all day long, as to whether or not the American people see an commensurate ROI on that investment, but unless you can produce some tangible decrease in services that the Federal Government provides to the American people, that is a direct results of said foreign aid, it's a moot point as to the effect it has on the populace. We aren't changing our debt-funding model, regardless of whether we send aid to Ukraine, and in the grand scheme of that debt, it's pennies that you are quibbling over.

Our economy is maintained through stability, the cost of that stability, is the US presence around the world, NATO expenditures, and a large military budget to maintain that stability.

Peace has a price.

a large military budget doesn't necessitate debt funding on its own. We have chosen to do everything, and the weight of that choice is dragging us down. you put the breathing mask on yourself before you help others, right now we are going blue in the face fighting other nations to do what we want. And it that isn't limited to on the battlefield.

we built a lie that we have to be as involved as we are. We can and should absolutely take steps back, doesn't mean leaving the world stage all together. It just means that we are far more selective with nations that are actually our friends. You can't please or protect everyone, and we are making our financial stability far more vulnerable than if we stayed at home every once and a while.

How long until people accept this is just another Iraq or Afghanistan? 20 years later, trillions spent, nothing to show for it. It won't matter if Russia collapses, we will just jump into the next conflict that isn't a consequential matter for us.

 

[LouderVol]

The founding fathers couldn't have conceived of a post-industrial service-based economy that attempts to maximize high end services and exports, while importing cheap goods from the other side of the world.

There is no isolating the US from Europe or any other part of the world at this point.

sure they could have. It was the UK/Great Britain back then. The UK was the strongest military that relied on a myriad of colonies to supply the raw materials they needed to run their factories back home.

something they had just fought to free themselves from. They saw first hand how that system was flawed and placed un-due pressure on those involved, while creating a tyrant back home whose sole job was to maintain the hegemony.

 

[LouderVol]

The level of trade?

Yes, the founding fathers had zero idea that in the future, we'd be importing nearly everything you find at your local Walmart, from the other side of the world.

Nor could they conceive of an economy, where the over 3/4 of the US GDP was provided by the service sector.

sure they could have. they lived in a world dominated by the heavily industrialized Europe with pocket economies controlled by specializations that relied on cheap imports and labor.

 

[BeardedVol]

sure they could have. It was the UK/Great Britain back then. The UK was the strongest military that relied on a myriad of colonies to supply the raw materials they needed to run their factories back home.

something they had just fought to free themselves from. They saw first hand how that system was flawed and placed un-due pressure on those involved, while creating a tyrant back home whose sole job was to maintain the hegemony.

Lol, which isn't even nearly the same as your entire retail sector collapsing because 100% of the goods they sell are manufactured outside of the US, and shipped in, after the raw materials to make those goods also had to be sourced in other countries and shipped to those countries where they were used to manufacture the goods, that we end up selling in the US, with near zero domestic production for the majority of those products.

Now factor in the US economy being pinned on the service sector, which requires other developed countries, to purchase US services rather than goods, as the primary financial engine, who also require the import of cheap goods, so they can maintain the economic power to purchase US services.

No, the founding fathers never envisioned an economy like the current state of what we have in the US today where domestic manufacturing accounts for 12% of GDP.

 

[BeardedVol]

@Rasputin_Vol everything still going as planned.

 

[MontyPython]

No we don't. We have given up 1/9th of our military budget to Ukraine. and we haven't done anything to offset the losses at home.

Its taking money away from Americans. From either programs that could have stayed at home and actually helped us, or just not been spent and added to the next default we set ourselves up for in 2025.

Lawdy. Can't see the forest through the trees.

Funding Ukraine *is* funding our national defense. And oh BTW, a significant percentage of our support is via the provision of older and *obsolete* weapons systems not cash. Giving Ukraine old Abrams, HIMARS and Patriots ain't no skin off our backs.

If you can't grasp this, I can't help you.

 

[LouderVol]

Lol, which isn't even nearly the same as your entire retail sector collapsing because 100% of the goods they sell are manufactured outside of the US, and shipped in, after the raw materials to make those goods also had to be sourced in other countries and shipped to those countries where they were used to manufacture the goods, that we end up selling in the US, with near zero domestic production for the majority of those products.

Now factor in the US economy being pinned on the service sector, which requires other developed countries, to purchase US services rather than goods, as the primary financial engine, who also require the import of cheap goods, so they can maintain the economic power to purchase US services.

No, the founding fathers never envisioned an economy like the current state of what we have in the US today where domestic manufacturing accounts for 12% of GDP.

your only argument is that the FF didn't see the double level of dependency from the UK, not that they weren't actually dependent. if you cut off the UKs trade back then, the worlds super power would collapse. You cut off our trade and the current world's super power collapses. its the same.

you also have plenty of 1800s European nations that didn't manufacturer their own goods after importing the raw goods and were purely trade nations. The Netherlands would be a great example of this, Portugal, Denmark, probably some of the Italian nations.

and as you mentioned times have evolved. We don't have to physically trade with other nations now to sell our services. we don't have to worry about physically visiting places to sell our services. with the world wide web, we can sit on our continent and still operate just fine. we also still have plenty of our own resources, and population. The only reason we don't manufacture at home is because of the decisions we have made. like I said we could operate as an independent nation from world trade, we just choose not to. And that independence again doesn't mean complete removal, it just means they we shouldn't be dependent on it.

 

[Volsdeep4]

Nope. we 100% could operate on our own. We have chosen not to.

Every major country is too intertwined. What happens in asia and Europe spills over to America and visa versa.
It’s called being proactive rather than reactive. What stops Russia from continuing their invasions? They take Chechnya, Georgia, Crimea, Ukraine. Think it stops?

 

[Septic]

You can try to blame “MAGA support” all you want but again both sides are worthless and corrupt. The invasion happened under you corrupt dementia patient not President Trump

Biden is your President and he's supporting the ass beating of Russia. Deal with it.

 

[OrangeBoro]

Biden is your President and he's supporting the ass beating of Russia. Deal with it.

I won’t recognize his old corrupt worthless ass as president. He’s only giving Zelensky what he wants because he’s likely getting kickbacks all 3 actors are corrupt and I see little difference in them

 

[LouderVol]

Every major country is too intertwined. What happens in asia and Europe spills over to America and visa versa.
It’s called being proactive rather than reactive. What stops Russia from continuing their invasions? They take Chechnya, Georgia, Crimea, Ukraine. Think it stops?

What has spilled over to America?

The N. Koreans got a missile over to us yet?
The Vietnamese paddled across the Pacific since we had to leave?
9/11 was in direct response to our previous involvement in the Middle East.

There has been one case of a war in Asia spilling over to us, and that was because we sanctioned the country in question, Japan.

We chose to get involved in WW1.

India and Pakistans fighting hasn't spilled over to us.
How about those civil wars in Africa? There a threat of those spilling over to Main St USA?

 

[Septic]

I won’t recognize his old corrupt worthless ass as president. He’s only giving Zelensky what he wants because he’s likely getting kickbacks all 3 actors are corrupt and I see little difference in them

You don't have to acknowledge reality for it still be true, Slow Joe is your President and it's all because of you MAGA bozos. You have only yourselves to blame.

Watching you cry about Biden for one reason or another in every thread is inevitable.

 

[Hunerwadel]

Biden is your President and he's supporting the ass beating of Russia. Deal with it.

The invasion of Ukraine is by far the most significant event of his presidency so far. He's handled it pretty well IMO. (that should tweak some noses)

 

[OrangeBoro]

You don't have to acknowledge reality for it still be true, Slow Joe is your President and it's all because of you MAGA bozos. You have only yourselves to blame.

Watching you cry about Biden for one reason or another in every thread is inevitable.

Nah he’s yours. And no I blame you communists and mail out voting, drop boxes etc.