War in Ukraine

#69,456
#69,456
Rasputin_Vol said:
You sound stupid and wicked. There are Ukrainian soldiers putting their lives on the line with the same old ammo you are laughing about that depend on that same ammo to save them in a battle.

You DGAF about the Ukrainians.
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No, I'm saying you might as well use stuff nearing the expiration date rather than have it go to waste. Nobody said we should send useless stuff to Ukraine or anywhere else. The comment has nothing to do with Ukrainians; it has everything to do with the constant accusations that we are wasting money sending weaponry to Ukraine - stuff that we probably would never use. Under your train of thought, any military surplus including stuff given to police and other agencies means it was given with the intent to harm the non-military end user.
 
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#69,457
#69,457
Caculator said:
How about using AC 47's to cut a wide swath in minefields?
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If you could keep them from being shot down. The point is minefields are a big problem but they are just one part of the defense. Other parts include artillery and then air defenses in case aircraft are used to bypass the minefields. Defense (and offense) often amounts to a number of supporting elements.
 
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#69,458
#69,458
Now, I thought we were not at war with the people of Russia? We are at "war" with no one actually... but if we were at war, it would be with Poodles...

Also, this is a very wicked article. How dare these countries not bow down to America and punish these Russian tourists!!!

Sanctions Haven’t Stopped Russians From Having Their Fun in the Sun

What stands out is not just that lots of Russians can afford to travel on foreign holidays—but that they’re doing so on Russian-operated Boeing planes sanctioned by the U.S. government.
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One might conclude that the U.S. government should just tell those other countries’ governments, including that of NATO member Turkey, to fall in line and do their part for the rules-based international order. Globalization, though, has created a world where ordinary people want to fly to sunny countries for their holidays—and a world where many non-Western nations have gained the economic heft to withstand U.S. pressure. The U.S. government can certainly keep reminding Ankara, Bangkok, Cairo, and even Male that refueling sanctioned Boeing aircraft violates U.S. rules, but these capitals can simply choose to ignore such reminders.
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#69,464
#69,464
F18l-DOWIAAURpM
 
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#69,465
#69,465
Rasputin_Vol said:
Now, I thought we were not at war with the people of Russia? We are at "war" with no one actually... but if we were at war, it would be with Poodles...

Also, this is a very wicked article. How dare these countries not bow down to America and punish these Russian tourists!!!

Sanctions Haven’t Stopped Russians From Having Their Fun in the Sun
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Stop using the term "we."

You're a Russian apologist and Putin sycophant. We support Ukraine's bid to remain a sovereign country by fighting off unprovoked Russian aggression.
 
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#69,466
#69,466
Seeing in the news Russian claims of a major offensive. Details seem to indicate intense fighting around Staromaiorske.

Not sure if it's just this area or part of a larger attack.
 
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#69,467
#69,467
From Twitter:

Lengthy post from milblogger Bulba of Thrones discussing the "Genocide of Ru artillery"

TLDR; Ukrainian losses pale in significance to Ru and while Bradley's etc can be replaced, Howitzers, MRLs and other Ru artillery cannot.

The crackdown on dissenters such as Girkin, bloggers and military figures is seen as preparation for bad news in the Autumn.

Another "goodwill gesture" is predicted soon.

The map he refers to and included below is from @GeoConfirmed

20230726_101338.png

20230726_101348.png

20230726_101355.png
 
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#69,468
#69,468
AM64 said:
No, I'm saying you might as well use stuff nearing the expiration date rather than have it go to waste. Nobody said we should send useless stuff to Ukraine or anywhere else. The comment has nothing to do with Ukrainians; it has everything to do with the constant accusations that we are wasting money sending weaponry to Ukraine - stuff that we probably would never use. Under your train of thought, any military surplus including stuff given to police and other agencies means it was given with the intent to harm the non-military end user.
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And you still don't get it. Giving them inferior equipment in a war like this is wasting lives and extending the conflict needlessly. But as an American boomer, I shouldn't expect anything else. You look at the excess weaponry and say "what a waste... we don’t have any use for this". A rational person on the other hand would be thankful that it wasn't needed. But what you don't do is give you so-called ally old/outdated materials and set maximalist goals on them when you know they are outgunned and outdated.

Again, it's more than just a matter of saving money. You are needlessly supporting throwing away Ukrainian lives.
 
#69,469
#69,469
Rasputin_Vol said:
And you still don't get it. Giving them inferior equipment in a war like this is wasting lives and extending the conflict needlessly. But as an American boomer, I shouldn't expect anything else. You look at the excess weaponry and say "what a waste... we don’t have any use for this". A rational person on the other hand would be thankful that it wasn't needed. But what you don't do is give you so-called ally old/outdated materials and set maximalist goals on them when you know they are outgunned and outdated.

Again, it's more than just a matter of saving money. You are needlessly supporting throwing away Ukrainian lives.
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And you still refuse to acknowledge that the primary cause is the bald dwarf and his orcs invading in the first place thus the primary route to peace needs to be withdrawal from Ukraine. That is Ukraine’s position. Your continued deflections to appeasement aren’t gaining any traction.
 
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#69,470
#69,470
MontyPython said:
From Twitter:

Lengthy post from milblogger Bulba of Thrones discussing the "Genocide of Ru artillery"

TLDR; Ukrainian losses pale in significance to Ru and while Bradley's etc can be replaced, Howitzers, MRLs and other Ru artillery cannot.

The crackdown on dissenters such as Girkin, bloggers and military figures is seen as preparation for bad news in the Autumn.

Another "goodwill gesture" is predicted soon.

The map he refers to and included below is from @GeoConfirmed

View attachment 565636

View attachment 565637

View attachment 565638
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On what planet is it easier to replace tanks vs artillery? artillery is about as easy as it is to make. tanks require a lot more material, fine parts, electronics, so on and so forth.

maybe they are trying to say that Ukraine has more tanks/IFVs than Russia has artillery, but that doesn't seem possible.

and even if they are counting on the combined industrialization of the west, its not like all of NATO actually produces Bradleys, or Leopards. Typically only the original nation makes them, they just sell some to the other nations.

our Abrams production hovers just around 100 tanks a year. Russia's tank production hovers somewhere around 120/130 a year.
I wasn't able to find a recent hard number for artillery production but going back to 1994 we were making 100 artillery pieces a month. that is a combined number of anything larger than 40mm, and includes for naval use, set artillery pieces, man portable (mortars it sounds like), self propelled, rockets, missiles, and old fashioned tube artillery.

but it sounds like unless our combined manufacturing of actual tanks is 12x what Russia's is they should be producing more artillery than we are tanks.
 
#69,471
#69,471
Rasputin_Vol said:
And you still don't get it. Giving them inferior equipment in a war like this is wasting lives and extending the conflict needlessly. But as an American boomer, I shouldn't expect anything else. You look at the excess weaponry and say "what a waste... we don’t have any use for this". A rational person on the other hand would be thankful that it wasn't needed. But what you don't do is give you so-called ally old/outdated materials and set maximalist goals on them when you know they are outgunned and outdated.

Again, it's more than just a matter of saving money. You are needlessly supporting throwing away Ukrainian lives.
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no. I am pretty sure everyone else here but you is actually for saving Ukrainian lives. We would be super happy if Russia just packed up and left without another life lost. Ukraine literally can't just pack up and go home, because the Russians are there killing them. and it clearly won't stop, because remember you still want to de-Nazify them, and at this point you and Putin have labeled anyone west of Moscow as Nazis.

Most of our thought process is, IF Russia is going to be in Ukraine killing Ukrainians, we are going to make sure they are armed so that its somewhat of a fair fight. I am about 99% that most of us never would have considered arming Ukraine if Russia had never taken any of their territory.

and you refuse to understand that outdated in the terms of military equipment doesn't mean what outdated means to the rest of us. most of it still works, and works very well. You seem to think we are sending them Ford Pintos that have been left to rust, when instead we are sending our 2020 F-150s that have been sitting in warehouses ready for use, because we are replacing them with 2024s.

is it still a waste of money, imo, yes. but its not like we are sending them stuff that has no military value. we just aren't sending them the very best, and there are any number of reasons for it, most of it because its OUR stuff.
 
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#69,472
#69,472
Rasputin_Vol said:
And you still don't get it. Giving them inferior equipment in a war like this is wasting lives and extending the conflict needlessly. But as an American boomer, I shouldn't expect anything else. You look at the excess weaponry and say "what a waste... we don’t have any use for this". A rational person on the other hand would be thankful that it wasn't needed. But what you don't do is give you so-called ally old/outdated materials and set maximalist goals on them when you know they are outgunned and outdated.

Again, it's more than just a matter of saving money. You are needlessly supporting throwing away Ukrainian lives.
Click to expand...
We are imposing no goals on them......... We are supplying them the means to defend themselves and fight on the battlefield. We are giving them assistance to pursue their goals of resistance and repelling foreign invaders on their soil.

We are not mandating they attack Russia at all costs. Your premise is foolish, it's a strawman fantasy you must sell yourself on in order to prop up your belief that Russia isn't the aggressor here. It simply doesnt hold water Ras.
 
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#69,473
#69,473
KB5252 said:
We are imposing no goals on them......... We are supplying them the means to defend themselves and fight on the battlefield. We are giving them assistance to pursue their goals of resistance and repelling foreign invaders on their soil.

We are not mandating they attack Russia at all costs. Your premise is foolish, it's a strawman fantasy you must sell yourself on in order to prop up your belief that Russia isn't the aggressor here. It simply doesnt hold water Ras.
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His whole argument here doesn't make sense.

We are somehow forcing Ukraine to fight. Apparently we have some hook that is so scary/big/powerful that even if the Russian's took over its somehow still a threat. We are doing something so terrible, something they so don't want to do; but they could easily just switch sides, and stop whatever our threat is when they are no longer under our thumb.

unless its literal nukes, I am not sure what could be worse than this conventional war we are already seeing. Economic sanctions? Apparently they aren't effecting Russia, in Ras's world, so that shouldn't concern Ukraine. We also apparently already have bio weapon labs in the area, so stopping the fight with the Russians would actually remove a more direct threat of bio/chemical warfare, than some possible western attack. He has said plenty of times that we have bribed their leaders, but that doesn't explain the average joe Ukrainian fighting Russia. If this was just the rich man's war a mutiny would solve that real quick, its worked before in this part of the world. and those leaders we have bribed have also bucked our wants, and made very public statements that we have denied (immediate entry into NATO), and we have even outed their own bs, with the missiles landing in Poland. If its a ransom thing by Ukraine we have likewise done plenty that shows we aren't just playing ball with Ukraine. We haven't given them everything they want, and Ras has been quick to point those instances out.

I really want to know what offer/threat we have that is better/worse than this war to maintain to Ukraine's detriment. Ukraine could end this tomorrow and surrender and there is literally nothing the west could do about it.
 
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