War in Ukraine

[NorthDallas40]

Looks that way to me, at least where Ukraine and NATO are concerned.

Russia violated the Budapest Memorandum by violating Ukraine's borders with annexation of Crimea.

Yes they did. They’ve essentially violated every single agreement they’ve made with Ukraine

 

[McDad]

The primary propagandist will likely just play the US coup card … again… and offer up “proof” which has been dismantled in this same thread dozens of times already

Is the coup something that is out in the open or done in a clandestine manner?

 

[MG1968]

Dmitry Medvedev

July 4 is a holiday for Americans. On this day in 1776, the US Declaration of Independence from the British Empire was adopted. The usual set of entertainments with smoke from barbecue, colorful fireworks and sadly pompous speeches are planned.

Much less and quietly today in America they talk about the Civil War itself, which lasted from 1861 to 1865. Although this is a real historical event, and its results are much more important for the average overseas citizen. Why? Including because the gloomy parallels with today are too visible. Including the "premonition of civil war". It is enough to watch their recent film Civil War. But there are other, also extremely unpleasant associations.

After all, it has become clear to many that the experience of the long confrontation between the northern states of the USA and the Confederacy of the southern (slave-owning) has a lot in common with the Ukrainian conflict. The difference between the North and the South in industrial potential and human resources was about the same as that of Russia and the former Ukraine. At the same time, the ideals of the opponents differed sharply. The Northerners had equality, freedom, one law for all. And the Confederates had inhuman, dense racism. The same foreign bastards as today – as usual, England and France – brazenly and unceremoniously interfered in the course of events, wanting victory for the South. They supported the slave owners in the same way as they are now helping Nazi Kyiv together with the modern USA. The parallels are more than transparent, and therefore unpleasant for the liberal-left establishment that runs the mass media in the USA. The Russian President has even sometimes been compared to Abraham Lincoln in American newspapers. A characteristic headline: “Vladimir Lincoln invaded Ukraine to preserve the unity of the Union.” There are many unpleasant allusions for Washington in the political and diplomatic aspects of the special military operation and the Civil War of the 19th century, as well as in the results of the latter.

As is known, Republican President Lincoln ultimately won. Unlike their leader, the senile Biden's comrades in the Democratic Party have not yet completely lost their memory. They know that Lincoln's struggle has become part of world history. And his name is revered in Europe, Latin America and Africa. And for real merits. And not at all because his portrait adorns banknotes. However, the current buffoons in the White House, like some ordinary Blinken, as well as the sullen old men in the Senate, cannot even dream of this.

The senseless and powerless propaganda of today's White House is also desperately looking for inspiration in history books. They throw out theses that Ukraine is supposedly behaving like Great Britain in 1940-1941. A little man with darting red rat eyes in an untidy green T-shirt is called the new Churchill. They demand that an old man with a half-open mouth, barely able to stand on his feet, become the new Roosevelt, hinting that the future US president will most likely rule in a wheelchair for health reasons. But an old man with dementia is not FDR. That is why the public winces and does not believe. America is a country with a short history, no matter how offensive it may be for Americans, although it also has bright pages. One of them is the Civil War, during which slavery was defeated. It is from this angle that our events should be assessed across the ocean: essentially, a civil war of one people, in which the majority is forced to defend its independence with arms in hand in the fight against the new Nazis, who are again supported by corrupt Europe and the American military-industrial complex. And the result of this war, as in the USA in the 19th century, should be the unification of our country. The revival of Great Russia!

P.S. Hey, Americans! To paraphrase your Trump,
Make Russia Great Again!

lol. What do you get when you cross a tool with a useful idiot?

 

[BeardedVol]

In reading up on the timeline, it appears Russia has a SOP to sign agreements / negotiations / treaties and then claim they were promised something which doesn't appear in the signed documents.

True, but it's pretty hard to get out of that one in particular, given that what they agreed to is plainly spelled out, with next to no ambiguity.

 

[McDad]

lol. What do you get when you cross a tool with a useful idiot?

Me as a kid "helping" my dad with any project???

 

[NorthDallas40]

Is the coup something that is out in the open or done in a clandestine manner?

It’s a nebulous operation largely formed around the baking skills of one US diplomat (Victoria Nuland and her over emphasized cookies).

I don’t really know how to answer because it doesn’t exist. The detractors/propagandists will use the normal US diplomacy overtures as examples of the US actively taking over the Ukraine government with proof offered being snippets of conversations or writings in isolation while ignoring the whole context in which they were actually used. The most recent one this weekend offered again was the Johnson interference in a peace plan that didn’t exist in reality (the terms were not agreeable and weren’t fully defined anyway) which Ukraine had clearly stated they had no intention of even considering.

 

[BeardedVol]

Is the coup something that is out in the open or done in a clandestine manner?

A "coup" definitely doesn't end in an election, that's for sure.

2014 Ukrainian presidential election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[McDad]

It’s a nebulous operation largely formed around the baking skills of one US diplomat (Victoria Nuland and her over emphasized cookies).

I don’t really know how to answer because it doesn’t exist. The detractors/propagandists will use the normal US diplomacy overtures as examples of the US actively taking over the US government with proof offered being snippets of conversations or writings in isolation while ignoring the whole context in which they were actually used. The most recent one this weekend offered again was the Johnson interference in a peace plan that didn’t exist in reality (the terms were not agreeable and weren’t fully defined anyway) which Ukraine had clearly stated they had no intention of even considering.

The US has tried to influence the region, though. I read where Bush pushed for NATO to accept Ukraine but France and Germany voted against.

So, for the propagandists (as you call them), where does influence end and proxy begin?

 

[BeardedVol]

The US has tried to influence the region, though. I read where Bush pushed for NATO to accept Ukraine but France and Germany voted against.

So, for the propagandists (as you call them), where does influence end and proxy begin?

Definitely not where Russia threatened Ukraine with a "pro-Russian insurgency" if they signed a trade agreement with the EU.

Ukraine's EU trade deal will be catastrophic, says Russia

Kremlin claims neighbouring state faces financial ruin and possible collapse if integration agreement goes ahead

www.theguardian.com

Or where Russia embargoed literally all products from Ukraine in an attempt to strongarm them into joining the Russian customs union.

Russian embargo of Ukrainian goods - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[evillawyer]

Yes they did. They’ve essentially violated every single agreement they’ve made with Ukraine

"But something something ... Ukraine mean to Russian speakers in the Donbas ... something something ... Nazis... something something ... Nato... something something ...
So Russia was justified in invading Ukraine." - @Rasputin_Vol

 

[NorthDallas40]

The US has tried to influence the region, though. I read where Bush pushed for NATO to accept Ukraine but France and Germany voted against.

So, for the propagandists (as you call them), where does influence end and proxy begin?

I don’t deny that Ukraine currently functions as a proxy in armed conflict against our second largest geopolitical foe. But I take much exception to how we got to that state. This is all due to armed Russian aggression rooted in imperialist expansion ideals. Period. Ukraine chose to actively oppose that aggression and we agreed to help as we said we would. So we have no puppet master baggage at this point as far as I’m concerned. It does become a problem if Ukraine chooses to end hostilities and sue for peace and we obstruct.

This is another common theme which we saw raised again here this weekend. The hollow pleas on Ukraine “sacrifices” cause by us which is nothing more than the rape acceptance scenario rebranded in some see thru facade which those posting the stupid hollow pleas cannot sell

 

[LSU-SIU]

"But something something ... Ukraine mean to Russian speakers in the Donbas ... something something ... Nazis... something something ... Nato... something something ...
So Russia was justified in invading Ukraine." - @Rasputin_Vol

All that really doesn't matter, nobody has to justify anything. Its like you're in a game where your points don't score. If you want your scores to count than it might be wise to sign up.

Internet warriors have no bearing on the outcome of all this.

 

[McDad]

Definitely not where Russia threatened Ukraine with a "pro-Russian insurgency" if they signed a trade agreement with the EU.
View attachment 657212

Ukraine's EU trade deal will be catastrophic, says Russia

Kremlin claims neighbouring state faces financial ruin and possible collapse if integration agreement goes ahead

www.theguardian.com

Or where Russia embargoed literally all products from Ukraine in an attempt to strongarm them into joining the Russian customs union.

Russian embargo of Ukrainian goods - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

WRT your highlighted portions...maybe I don't understand the nature of the relationship between Ukraine and Russia. But if Ukraine is an independent and sovereign nation, how or why does Russia guarantee Ukraine's status as a state?

 

[NorthDallas40]

WRT your highlighted portions...maybe I don't understand the nature of the relationship between Ukraine and Russia. But if Ukraine is an independent and sovereign nation, how or why does Russia guarantee Ukraine's status as a state?

I’ll offer my opinion. Because nobody trusts Russia to abide by their diplomatic agreements. It’s really just that simple.

 

[LSU-SIU]

WRT your highlighted portions...maybe I don't understand the nature of the relationship between Ukraine and Russia. But if Ukraine is an independent and sovereign nation, how or why does Russia guarantee Ukraine's status as a state?

The Ukraine wasn't sovereign before 2022, they certainly aren't sovereign now. If the Ukrainians settle with Russia now, they will be cut off from all Western funding and probably be shutdown via sanctions i.e. the new sovereignty. If they make gains, all of those gains go to the debt collectors and BlackRock.

 

[McDad]

All that really doesn't matter, nobody has to justify anything. Its like you're in a game where your points don't score. If you want your scores to count than it might be wise to sign up.

Internet warriors have no bearing on the outcome of all this.

Agreed. Those of us who discuss the topic are neither responsible nor consequential in what happens over there.

I would like (if possible) to understand how some people gain a different perspective than mine when the timeline of events seems straightforward.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Agreed. Those of us who discuss the topic are neither responsible nor consequential in what happens over there.

I would like (if possible) to understand how some people gain a different perspective than mine when the timeline of events seems straightforward.

You got me. There really isn't much to this war, it was predicted by the U.S. military 27+ years ago of the consequences, they did it anyway.... magic.

At the end of the day, we're probably at the point where all of the Ukraine will have to be destroyed.

All these guys appear mad at Russia, I have no idea why. It doesn't make sense to me. They keep on with all these buzzwords like sovereignty which makes no sense in the current context. The Ukrainians basically own nothing at this point. All the lies and getting mad by the internet warriors isn't going to change any of that. Once Russia invaded, it was always about how much they lose. My wild guess - EVERYTHING.

 

[NorthDallas40]

The Ukraine wasn't sovereign before 2022, they certainly aren't sovereign now. If the Ukrainians settle with Russia now, they will be cut off from all Western funding and probably be shutdown via sanctions i.e. the new sovereignty. If they make gains, all of those gains go to the debt collectors and BlackRock.

As usual the historical record of Russia’s signed diplomatic agreements conflict with your moronic diatribes. Clown.

 

[Rocky_Top_Vol13]

 

[McDad]

The Ukraine wasn't sovereign before 2022, they certainly aren't sovereign now. If the Ukrainians settle with Russia now, they will be cut off from all Western funding and probably be shutdown via sanctions i.e. the new sovereignty. If they make gains, all of those gains go to the debt collectors and BlackRock.

wiki and other resources show Ukraine as independent in the early 90s after the old soviet union fell. Do you agree Ukraine was independent at that time?

 

[LSU-SIU]

wiki and other resources show Ukraine as independent in the early 90s after the old soviet union fell. Do you agree Ukraine was independent at that time?

Imo there are only a handful of countries that could claim they are independent i.e. U.S. dollar world currency. The U.S. is able to control most countries through sanctions, cut access to SWIFT, and the global monetary system. Only a few countries could survive a full on attack there - the Ukraine isn't one of them.

The Ukraine is just a place where the world decided to take a dump. The last outhouse was closed - Afghanistan. Nobody cares about the Ukrainians, never did. The people crying out here are a strange but funny group.

The Russians will most likely have to destroy it all, or the alternative is this doesn't really get solved, imo.

 

[BeardedVol]

WRT your highlighted portions...maybe I don't understand the nature of the relationship between Ukraine and Russia. But if Ukraine is an independent and sovereign nation, how or why does Russia guarantee Ukraine's status as a state?

If you'll recall, Ukraine gave up the third largest nuclear arsenal on the guarantee that the US, UK, and Russia, would guarantee their sovereignty and refrain from invading them or using nuclear weapons against them.

Pretty sure that agreement is what Russia is referring to with that threat.

 

[LouderVol]

"Sacrificed"?

I take of you'd surrender at first chance were the US invaded by a foreign power bent on killing you or driving you from your home?

the Aztecs sacrificed their enemies to their gods. Not much different here, Putin using Ukrainians as a sacrifice to maintain the fearmongering that keeps him in power and rich.

 

[NorthDallas40]

the Aztecs sacrificed their enemies to their gods. Not much different here, Putin using Ukrainians as a sacrifice to maintain the fearmongering that keeps him in power and rich.

That wasn’t the implication on which party (the aggressor) is doing the sacrificing tho Louder

 

[BeardedVol]

Imo there are only a handful of countries that could claim they are independent i.e. U.S. dollar world currency. The U.S. is able to control most countries through sanctions, cut access to SWIFT, and the global monetary system. Only a few countries could survive a full on attack there - the Ukraine isn't one of them.

The Ukraine is just a place where the world decided to take a dump. The last outhouse was closed - Afghanistan. Nobody cares about the Ukrainians, never did. The people crying out here are a strange but funny group.

The Russians will most likely have to destroy it all, or the alternative is this doesn't really get solved, imo.

This is one of your more moronic takes on, quite literally everything that has to do with Ukraine, the US dollar, macroeconomics, multinational financial mechanisms, all in a single post, while managing to use the soviet trope of adding 'the' to Ukraine's name.

It’s ‘Ukraine,’ not ‘the Ukraine’ – here’s why

That three-letter word erases the country’s political sovereignty.

theconversation.com