War in Ukraine

[volinbham]

Considering the Russian position on the issue, what diplomatic approach would you suggest?

the approaches we always use - of course the sides begin from a position of non-negotiation.

this is the only conflict I can recall where we aren't making a major effort to find diplomatic solutions or even trying to have discussions with both sides.

the worst that can happen is the efforts fail. making no effort guarantees failure

 

[NorthDallas40]

the approaches we always use - of course the sides begin from a position of non-negotiation.

this is the only conflict I can recall where we aren't making a major effort to find diplomatic solutions or even trying to have discussions with both sides.

the worst that can happen is the efforts fail. making no effort guarantees failure

Why isn’t Russia seeking out its status in the UN to end this situation also. Diplomacy, effective diplomacy anyway, has always been a two way street. Based on the post you replied to we see the answer clearly. They aren’t interested in a diplomatic solution. But they always have the option and the status to try!

 

[volinbham]

Why isn’t Russia seeking out its status in the UN to end this situation also. Diplomacy, effective diplomacy anyway, has always been a two way street. Based on the post you relied to we see the answer clearly. They aren’t interested in a diplomatic solution. But they always have the option and frankly the status to try!

Just because they could doesn't mean we shouldn't. We have always at least claimed we have a diplomacy first foreign policy.

My personal opinion is that we are using Ukraine as canon fodder to achieve our larger goals vis a vis Russia/Putin. I cannot endorse that.

 

[BeardedVol]

the approaches we always use - of course the sides begin from a position of non-negotiation.

this is the only conflict I can recall where we aren't making a major effort to find diplomatic solutions or even trying to have discussions with both sides.

the worst that can happen is the efforts fail. making no effort guarantees failure

If the invading party in an armed conflict, says we will not accept any peace short of total capitulation or the destruction of the country we have invaded, exactly what sort of diplomatic resolution do you believe is possible?

We'll set aside the numerous treaties that Russia broke with the initial invasion, and pretend that they are a trustworthy negotiator for the sake of argument.

Exactly what position would you suggest that Ukraine/UN/US approach from to entice Russia to cease making war upon Ukraine?

 

[volinbham]

If the invading party in an armed conflict, says we will not accept any peace short of total capitulation or the destruction of the country we have invaded, exactly what sort of diplomatic resolution do you believe is possible?

We'll set aside the numerous treaties that Russia broke with the initial invasion, and pretend that they are a trustworthy negotiator for the sake of argument.

Exactly what position would you suggest that Ukraine/UN/US approach from to entice Russia to cease making war upon Ukraine?

I don't know what it would look like. It's never a clean, neat process. A negotiated outcome rarely looks like the first envisioned outcome. Even if the end result is no movement on either side then at least you made an attempt.

Our current strategy appears to be maintaining a stalemate where people continue to die and infrastructure is destroyed. Why not even try to mitigate the ongoing destruction.

Again I look at Israel/Hamas - clearly Hamas invaded, broke treaties and is not a trustworthy negotiator but we are making large, ongoing diplomatic efforts. Same with Iran and their various assaults, violations etc.

This is the one conflict where we just say "can't do anything diplomatically so why try" - here's just enough weapons to keep the thing going.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Just because they could doesn't mean we shouldn't. We have always at least claimed we have a diplomacy first foreign policy.

My personal opinion is that we are using Ukraine as canon fodder to achieve our larger goals vis a vis Russia/Putin. I cannot endorse that.

You assume we aren’t. Or you’re pointing out that we aren’t doing so in an overt public fashion as we historically have.

But you already had you answer in a prior post referencing the moron Medvedev’s rhetoric before you made yours. Nobody expects diplomacy to achieve any meaningful lasting outcome. And Russia has publicly stated it won’t several times.

But why are you chastising us for not taking an action (an assumption I’d add) that you yourself don’t seem to believe will achieve anything?

And back to Gaza most of the talks seem to be focused on pausing hostilities to get non combatants and civilian prisoners out of harms way. I haven’t seen any talks about letting Hamas continue to exist at all long term once this current conflict is over have you? Assuming we agree why is that? I’d submit that’s because Israel had stated that won’t be the case they are going to exterminate this current version of Hamas and I take them at their word on that.

 

[hog88]

You assume we aren’t. Or you’re pointing out that we aren’t doing so in an overt public fashion as we historically have.

But you already had you answer in a prior post referencing the moron Medvedev’s rhetoric before you made yours. Nobody expects diplomacy to achieve any meaningful lasting outcome. And Russia has publicly stated it won’t several times.

But why are you chastising us for not taking an action (an assumption I’d add) that you yourself don’t seem to believe will achieve anything?

And back to Gaza most of the talks seem to be focused on pausing hostilities to get non combatants and civilian prisoners out of harms way. I haven’t seen any talks about letting Hamas continue to exist at all long term once this current conflict is over have you? Assuming we agree why is that? I’d submit that’s because Israel had stated that won’t be the case they are going to exterminate this current version of Hamas and I take them at their word on that.

Why hasn't Biden offered a summit between himself and Putin?

 

[NorthDallas40]

Why hasn't Biden offered a summit between himself and Putin?

Why hasn’t Putin picked up the direct line to the WH and done the same thing?

I’ve already stated what I think the answer is multiple times. Because everyone is taking Russia at their word that total annexation of Ukraine is their ultimate goal.

Also I’d add I find a direct exchange between puddinhead and Putin absolutely terrifying. But it is the expectation of both of the people occupying the offices the both hold.

 

[BeardedVol]

I don't know what it would look like. It's never a clean, neat process. A negotiated outcome rarely looks like the first envisioned outcome. Even if the end result is no movement on either side then at least you made an attempt.

Our current strategy appears to be maintaining a stalemate where people continue to die and infrastructure is destroyed. Why not even try to mitigate the ongoing destruction.

Again I look at Israel/Hamas - clearly Hamas invaded, broke treaties and is not a trustworthy negotiator but we are making large, ongoing diplomatic efforts. Same with Iran and their various assaults, violations etc.

This is the one conflict where we just say "can't do anything diplomatically so why try" - here's just enough weapons to keep the thing going.

Ok, so if you can't fathom a position to start from given that Russia has said on numerous occasions, why do you keep asking why no one has "tried diplomacy"? Do you honestly believe that numerous attempts have not been made to engage Russia? Their response has been to turn Medvedev loose on Twitter and state that they'll accept nothing short of the end of Ukrainian statehood.

I'm not sure what you expect Ukraine to do if they don't want to see their country completely destroyed by Russia, other than to keep fighting as long as Russia continues the war.

 

[hog88]

Why hasn’t Putin picked up the direct line to the WH and done the same thing?

I’ve already stated what I think the answer is multiple times. Because everyone is taking Russia at their word that total annexation of Ukraine is their ultimate goal.

Also I’d add I find a direct exchange between puddinhead and Putin absolutely terrifying. But it is the expectation of both of the people occupying the offices the both hold.

Why would Putin call the WH?

 

[NorthDallas40]

Ok, so if you can't fathom a position to start from given that Russia has said on numerous occasions, whey do you keep asking why no one has "tried diplomacy"? Do you honestly believe that numerous attempts have not been made to engage Russia? Their response has been to turn Medvedev loose on Twitter and state that they'll accept nothing short of the end of Ukrainian statehood.

I'm not sure what you expect Ukraine to do if they don't want to see their country completely destroyed by Russia, other than to keep fighting as long as Russia continues the war.

I agree with this stance as stated entirely.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Why would Putin call the WH?

Why would Puddinhead call the Kremlin on an issue you’ve labeled as a European problem? Aren’t you against US interference?

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

No. Not facts. Rather, you stated, "Biden was illegally installed as President". Why would you say that? Are you not aware that Trump and his allies lost every single lawsuit (50+) challenging the legitimacy of the election? Many of these legal rulings were actually made by Trump-appointed judges. Do you really believe the *entire* US legal system illegally assisted Biden to win the election?

Or, do just believe the lies that Trump tells you because, sadly, you are incapable of deduction or any reasonable, independent thought of your own. (Note this sentence ends with a period, not a question mark.)

Provide an explanation.

Catturd hasn't got back to him yet with talking points...

 

[volinbham]

You assume we aren’t. Or you’re pointing out that we aren’t doing so in an overt public fashion as we historically have.

But you already had you answer in a prior post referencing the moron Medvedev’s rhetoric before you made yours. Nobody expects diplomacy to achieve any meaningful lasting outcome. And Russia has publicly stated it won’t several times.

But why are you chastising us for not taking an action (an assumption I’d add) that you yourself don’t seem to believe will achieve anything?

And back to Gaza most of the talks seem to be focused on pausing hostilities to get non combatants and civilian prisoners out of harms way. I haven’t seen any talks about letting Hamas continue to exist at all long term once this current conflict is over have you? Assuming we agree why is that? I’d submit that’s because Israel had stated that won’t be the case they are going to exterminate this current version of Hamas and I take them at their word on that.

on the first point - it appears you and Bearded assume we aren't or would be wrong to do so. I asked if we were since I see no evidence and the answer from the board seems to be we are not and should not be.

on the second point - it could be an ironclad position or it could be bluster. Clearly we don't believe all public statements from the Kremlin. Also, conditions change. What was an ironclad position 6 months in can morph to bluster 2+ years in as reality sets in. We could simply shrug and say it's ironclad or we could attempt to see if there is some offramp that reduces the destruction.

on the third point - I'm criticizing our policy because we've seemingly abandoned a major tool we have used consistently and repeatedly. The stakes are very high and it seems an all efforts on deck strategy is merited. I do not think it would be completely ineffective but even it was it has the benefits of our exercising our FP principles that we proclaim.

on the fourth point - I haven't seen that our position is the destruction of Hamas (which is the Israel vision).

there is no end in sight on the current trajectory - seems a change in strategy may be merited.

 

[volinbham]

Ok, so if you can't fathom a position to start from given that Russia has said on numerous occasions, why do you keep asking why no one has "tried diplomacy"? Do you honestly believe that numerous attempts have not been made to engage Russia? Their response has been to turn Medvedev loose on Twitter and state that they'll accept nothing short of the end of Ukrainian statehood.

I'm not sure what you expect Ukraine to do if they don't want to see their country completely destroyed by Russia, other than to keep fighting as long as Russia continues the war.

I asked if we've tried to find diplomatic solutions having seen none (I'm aware that not all would be seen by the public). Your response is why bother which suggests you don't believe we've done much in that regard.

So help me understand your position. Have we tried it and it's failed? Have we not tried it because the Kremlin says it won't work?

 

[volinbham]

Let's approach this from another angle - the Ukrainian position appears to be that Russia must be completely gone from all areas of Ukraine it has entered (not sure how Crimea fits in but we'll put that aside for now) and all hostilities against them from Russia must cease.

I understand why that would be the Ukrainian position.

Now - what's the likelihood this happens and more importantly how does that happen? If it is possible in the near term how long will that take?

 

[NorthDallas40]

on the first point - it appears you and Bearded assume we aren't or would be wrong to do so. I asked if we were since I see no evidence and the answer from the board seems to be we are not and should not be.

on the second point - it could be an ironclad position or it could be bluster. Clearly we don't believe all public statements from the Kremlin. Also, conditions change. What was an ironclad position 6 months in can morph to bluster 2+ years in as reality sets in. We could simply shrug and say it's ironclad or we could attempt to see if there is some offramp that reduces the destruction.

on the third point - I'm criticizing our policy because we've seemingly abandoned a major tool we have used consistently and repeatedly. The stakes are very high and it seems an all efforts on deck strategy is merited. I do not think it would be completely ineffective but even it was it has the benefits of our exercising our FP principles that we proclaim.

on the fourth point - I haven't seen that our position is the destruction of Hamas (which is the Israel vision).

there is no end in sight on the current trajectory - seems a change in strategy may be merited.

On your first point in reply that was actually your assertion not mine. We aren’t doing any active diplomacy efforts. I pointed out it sure don’t seem to be doing any overt public overtures I agree

On your second point from Georgia on we see enough evidence it would be pragmatic to take them at their word and outright foolish to do otherwise.

On your third point you’re taking your observation of overt public activity as fact and I’m simply pointing out I think that’s a bit naive is all. And any pragmatic person can see based on the historical record of Russia’s actions it’s only a pause in their ongoing campaign to get the band back together.

I haven’t seen it’s our stance either. I don’t think I implied it was our stance but it is Israel’s stance and they’ve stated it. I’ll take their word for it.

There is one definite end in sight if Ukraine ceases to resist. I don’t see how that is arguable.

 

[hog88]

Why would Puddinhead call the Kremlin on an issue you’ve labeled as a European problem? Aren’t you against US interference?

Because we are spending obscene amounts of money on this war and Ukrainians are dying by the thousands. If Biden could stop this why wouldn't he at least try?

 

[NorthDallas40]

Let's approach this from another angle - the Ukrainian position appears to be that Russia must be completely gone from all areas of Ukraine it has entered (not sure how Crimea fits in but we'll put that aside for now) and all hostilities against them from Russia must cease.

I understand why that would be the Ukrainian position.

Now - what's the likelihood this happens and more importantly how does that happen? If it is possible in the near term how long will that take?

And I’ll stick with the current exchange we’ve had this far. Whatever Ukraine had said is irrelevant. Russian government officials just stated any near term concessions are irrelevant their ultimate goal is the complete annexation of Ukraine.

 

[volinbham]

There is one definite end in sight if Ukraine ceases to exist. I don’t see how that is arguable.

To clarify, I'm not saying substitute diplomacy for military and economic efforts - I'm suggesting we add it to the arsenal.

We have achieved stalemate - how do we move past that?

 

[NorthDallas40]

Because we are spending obscene amounts of money on this war and Ukrainians are dying by the thousands. If Biden could stop this why wouldn't he at least try?

Who in their right mind would think Biden, Trump, Obama, or even Reagan could at this point get Putin to stop when they’ve already said they won’t.

 

[NorthDallas40]

To clarify, I'm not saying substitute diplomacy for military and economic efforts - I'm suggesting we add it to the arsenal.

We have achieved stalemate - how do we move past that?

And I’ve replied you’re assuming we aren’t because you see no overt activity. I don’t know if we are or aren’t and I’d submit you don’t either.

Neither of us seem to disagree that diplomacy will achieve any meaningful lasting outcome.

 

[hog88]

And I’ll stick with the current exchange we’ve had this far. Whatever Ukraine had said is irrelevant. Russian government officials just stated any near term concessions are irrelevant their ultimate goal is the complete annexation of Ukraine.

You can't take the word of Russian govt officials as a hard and fast policy until Putin comes out and says it. Putin is using his underlings to spread a hardline message all the while leaving him an out.

 

[McDad]

Why hasn't Biden offered a summit between himself and Putin?

A big boy summit?

 

[hog88]

Who in their right mind would think Biden, Trump, Obama, or even Reagan could at this point get Putin to stop when they’ve already said they won’t.

Has Putin said he won't? He's the only one that matters.