War in Ukraine

#80,926
#80,926
hog88 said:
You can't take the word of Russian govt officials as a hard and fast policy until Putin comes out and says it. Putin is using his underlings to spread a hardline message all the while leaving him an out.
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When it completely matches their actions going back to 2008 I’ll go ahead and assume they mean it.

Nope we disagree on Putin being the master negotiator he’s in it to win it at this point.
 
#80,927
#80,927
volinbham said:
I asked if we've tried to find diplomatic solutions having seen none (I'm aware that not all would be seen by the public). Your response is why bother which suggests you don't believe we've done much in that regard.

So help me understand your position. Have we tried it and it's failed? Have we not tried it because the Kremlin says it won't work?
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You've stated that you don't know what position the US or Ukraine could take given Russia's statements on "peace", so again I ask, why do you keep asking why "no one has tried diplomacy"?

What sort of diplomacy can one engage in, when a country has invaded another, and stated flatly "our position is that the country we have invaded must surrender to us, we will observe no other form of peace"?

Be specific, what further diplomatic actions do you want us to take in this scenario?
 
#80,928
#80,928
NorthDallas40 said:
And I’ve replied you’re assuming we aren’t because you see no overt activity. I don’t know if we are or aren’t and I’d submit you don’t either.

Neither of us seem to disagree that diplomacy will achieve any meaningful lasting outcome.
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we may disagree on "meaningful" and "lasting". so long as Putin is in control his aspirations are unlikely to change - the hostilities ceased for some period of time (year? 2?) and he tried again that pause means fewer Ukrainian deaths and time for Ukraine to rebuild. Yes, it does the same for Russia but again I'll point to the ME - no one thinks diplomacy is bringing lasting peace but pauses in the hostilities are still meaningful for those impacted.
 
#80,930
#80,930
NorthDallas40 said:
Then why in the hell are you deflecting to this all being puddinhead’s burden? Again he has a direct line in his office to the Oval Office!
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He's sitting in the big office sending our money over there plus he's the leader of the free world so yeah, it's Biden's baby to raise.
 
#80,931
#80,931
volinbham said:
we may disagree on "meaningful" and "lasting". so long as Putin is in control his aspirations are unlikely to change - the hostilities ceased for some period of time (year? 2?) and he tried again that pause means fewer Ukrainian deaths and time for Ukraine to rebuild. Yes, it does the same for Russia but again I'll point to the ME - no one thinks diplomacy is bringing lasting peace but pauses in the hostilities are still meaningful for those impacted.
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Oh I think we’re near on the same page on meaningful and lasting and I’ll point out again that invoking Gaza isn’t helping your case. Nobody seems to be asking Bibi to let Hamas continue to exist. The entire exchange this morning is focused around asking Putin to let Ukraine continue to exist. When they’ve stated they will not.
 
#80,932
#80,932
hog88 said:
He's sitting in the big office sending our money over there plus he's the leader of the free world so yeah, it's Biden's baby to raise.
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So you are a fan of US interference in a problem which you’ve stated isn’t our concern when its convenient to invoke?
 
#80,933
#80,933
BeardedVol said:
You've stated that you don't know what position the US or Ukraine could take given Russia's statements on "peace", so again I ask, why do you keep asking why "no one has tried diplomacy"?

What sort of diplomacy can one engage in, when a country has invaded another, and stated flatly "our position is that the country we have invaded must surrender to us, we will observe no other form of peace"?

Be specific, what further diplomatic actions do you want us to take in this scenario?
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are we having any high level talks with Russia about the situation? it doesn't start with proposed solutions - it starts with some dialog about the situation and digging in to the position.

I get that you and ND believe Russia absolutely will not budge - that is your opinion but your opinion doesn't make it a fact. If Biden were capable he absolutely should have discussions with Putin about. Blinken should be talkiing to his counterpart. Maybe they secretly have but it certainly appears they have not.
 
#80,934
#80,934
NorthDallas40 said:
Oh I think we’re near on the same page on meaningful and lasting and I’ll point out again that invoking Gaza isn’t helping your case. Nobody seems to be asking Bibi to let Hamas continue to exist. The entire exchange this morning is focused around asking Putin to let Ukraine continue to exist. When they’ve stated they will not.
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Hamas doesn't want Israel to exist yet we are all talky talky with them. The difference is Hamas doesn't have the fire power to make it happen.
 
#80,935
#80,935
volinbham said:
are we having any high level talks with Russia about the situation? it doesn't start with proposed solutions - it starts with some dialog about the situation and digging in to the position.

I get that you and ND believe Russia absolutely will not budge - that is your opinion but your opinion doesn't make it a fact. If Biden were capable he absolutely should have discussions with Putin about. Blinken should be talkiing to his counterpart. Maybe they secretly have but it certainly appears they have not.
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You've seen any indication from Russia that they are willing to actually negotiate with Ukraine? You know, since it's Ukraine that has to agree to any sort of peace deal, and not the United States.

I've seen the exact opposite from them, but if you have information to the contrary, please share it.
 
#80,936
#80,936
volinbham said:
Hamas doesn't want Israel to exist yet we are all talky talky with them. The difference is Hamas doesn't have the fire power to make it happen.
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And again what are we all talky talky about? The non combatants have been asked to move and it would seem a majority are wanting to do so and that is the focus. No long term discussions about if Israel or Hamas is going to continue to exist.

In Ukraine the Kiev government has implored civilians to leave the areas they control. I’d submit Russia is doing nothing to move large numbers of civilians out of the areas they control except for specific points in their interest, the abducting of children and moving them back into Russia being the most obvious.

So after two + years anybody that wanted to leave has already. And in the areas where Kiev has retaken large areas the people greeted them as liberators.

So why do you think A) the situation in Gaza is similar enough to equate to Ukraine or B) there is actually merit to a cease fire to move people from where they currently are if they have had over two years to leave? And where are you suggesting the millions of displaced Ukrainians go?
 
#80,937
#80,937
BeardedVol said:
You've seen any indication from Russia that they are willing to actually negotiate with Ukraine? You know, since it's Ukraine that has to agree to any sort of peace deal, and not the United States.

I've seen the exact opposite from them, but if you have information to the contrary, please share it.
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I'm trying to understand your position. Is it 1) diplomatic efforts are a waste of time so why bother or 2) we are doing them behind the scenes and I just don't realize it. If #2 then sure I acknowledge that and I hope we are making those efforts. If #1 then I disagree that it's a waste of time.

on your question - of course Ukraine and Russia have to agree - that's how it always works when we take a role in trying to resolve a conflict between to parties. that fact doesn't stop us trying/facilitating
 
#80,939
#80,939
volinbham said:
I'm trying to understand your position. Is it 1) diplomatic efforts are a waste of time so why bother or 2) we are doing them behind the scenes and I just don't realize it. If #2 then sure I acknowledge that and I hope we are making those efforts. If #1 then I disagree that it's a waste of time.

on your question - of course Ukraine and Russia have to agree - that's how it always works when we take a role in trying to resolve a conflict between to parties. that fact doesn't stop us trying/facilitating
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My position is that given Russia's position that there can be no peace with Ukraine outside of surrender, the US has no diplomatic avenue to engage with Russia, as Russia refuses to engage with Ukraine, who must be a party to any peace negotiations, since it's Ukraine that suffers under Russia's invasion, and Ukraine that must suffer under any peace negotiated with them.

The US can't manufacture a diplomatic solution between Russia and Ukraine, no matter how much you think we can, even though you can't fathom what that would even look like.
 
#80,940
#80,940
BeardedVol said:
You've seen any indication from Russia that they are willing to actually negotiate with Ukraine? You know, since it's Ukraine that has to agree to any sort of peace deal, and not the United States.

I've seen the exact opposite from them, but if you have information to the contrary, please share it.
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They can agree or the money stops.
 
#80,941
#80,941
hog88 said:
The USS Interference sailed 3 years ago. The question now is how long do we allow it to be rudderless?
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Well I know that’s your stance which we’ve disagreed on multiple times before. But it’s actually the USS Assistance tried to leave port in 2014 and only found the issue with the engines in March 2022. Yeah… I know we disagree on that too
 
#80,946
#80,946
hog88 said:
What’s funny about that? It’s like what I told my kids when they were in college and I got the “I’m an adult I don’t have to obey you”. I said that’s true and I don’t have to financially support you.
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I am enjoying your self conflictions this morning on the US shouldn’t meddle followed by the US is the defacto negotiator for Ukraine and will determine what they will or won’t accept. That’s all.
 
#80,948
#80,948
NorthDallas40 said:
I am enjoying your self conflictiobs this morning on the US shouldn’t meddle followed by the US is the defacto negotiator for Ukraine and will determine what they will or won’t accept. That’s all.
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There is no conflict in what I’m saying and what I have said previously. You’re flailing around like the bearded wonder trying to find a stable footing.
 
#80,949
#80,949
hog88 said:
There is no conflict in what I’m saying and what I have said previously. You’re flailing around like the bearded wonder trying to find a stable footing.
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There is obvious conflict in your stances 😂

The US shouldn’t get involved.

Ok the US is going to get involved and in fact own the negotiations in whole.
 
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#80,950
#80,950
Franklin Pierce said:

Exclusive: US and Germany foiled Russian plot to Assassinate CEO of arms manufacturer sending weapons to Ukraine​


US intelligence discovered earlier this year that the Russian government planned to assassinate the chief executive of a powerful German arms manufacturer that has been producing artillery shells and military vehicles for Ukraine, according to five US and western officials familiar with the episode.

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www.cnn.com
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Have the US and Germans solved the Nordstream bombing mystery?
 
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