War in Ukraine

Heh. Good question. What lengths would you be willing to go to in support of something you felt really strong about?

More importantly would you agree that people protesting against the vietnam war were actually right?
Your first question is actually a very good one short of leaving off a very important part. This is the better question.

What lengths would you be willing to go to in support of something you felt really strongly enough about to suffer the legal consequences?

And the 2nd part is only relevant if the above is acknowledged. Otherwise we end up with little more than another trans thing where it's cool for people to break the law as long as they self-identify as being "right" and the rest of us have to shrug and just accept their definition.

 
Heh. Good question. What lengths would you be willing to go to in support of something you felt really strong about?

More importantly would you agree that people protesting against the vietnam war were actually right?
Protesters then like protesters today weren't a monolith. Those saying we should stop our meddling were probably right. Those who waved NV flags and cheered Ho Chi Minh weren't.
 
You give Ukraine the weapons it needs to kill enough invaders and damage enough oil and gas facilities to change Putin's mind.

The war only continues because Putin keeps waging it. No amount of handwringing from Trump will force Putin to stop if he doesn't want to, and cutting off Ukraine from military aid just gets mor Ukrainians killed.

Does Europe turn on Ukraine if they damage enough NG and oil facilities to the point their supply gets turned off?
 
We're spending roughly $50 billion annually on maintaining and modernizing our nuclear arsenal.
Europe owes us a fat portion of that. I'm glad you brought this up. We need a calculation of our "fully loaded" annual expenses to protect backstabbing Europe.

Of course there is the circumstance our military has never passed an audit. So that figure could be higher.
 
Europe owes us a fat portion of that. I'm glad you brought this up. We need a calculation of our "fully loaded" annual expenses to protect backstabbing Europe.

Of course there is the circumstance our military has never passed an audit. So that figure could be higher.

Lol why would Europe owe us anything for that?

Europe doesn't dictate how many nuclear weapons we choose to maintain.
 
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Is that even possible? I'm not trying to be sarcastic. So far after 3 years nothing has changed Putin's mind.

Russia is no stranger to defeat, and like every country, has it's breaking point in how long it can and will sustain a war.

They were just recently ran out of Syria.
First Chechen War
Afghanistan Invasion
WWI
Russo-Japanese War

The alternative is to sacrifice Ukraine, and allow Russia to murder them at will, since cutting off aid would just incentivize Putin to wait them out and then roll into a country defended by disarmed soldiers.
 
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Does Europe turn on Ukraine if they damage enough NG and oil facilities to the point their supply gets turned off?
Well, they stopped all transit on 1/1/2025, and Europe has had 3 years to make other arrangements, so given the alternative, I doubt Ukraine cares if it could bring an end to Putin's ability to wage war sooner.

 
I agree mostly I think. I just think the way he is going about it is shocking to the various systems in place. I also think it may be less likely to stick if multiple sides don't feel like everyone is pulling the same direction.

I think the problem is Europe is pulling in a bunch of different directions at the same time.

I hope it's successful and I hope Ukraine gets concessions and assurances it finds acceptable.
Definitely. I'll admit I've been a bit surprised by the complete shock of Europeans accepting the idea that they should have responsibility for their own defense.

I never realized the US military being in Europe was so accepted and embraced by day to day Europeans before this. My whole life they've called the US warmongers and I thought they looked down their nose at us for for having bases all over the world and getting involved in conflicts. I always thought US World Police was a self styled title and now I'm realizing it's been expected all along.
 
Care to spell this out for the remedial students like me?

In an ideal world, Russia would be a liberal democracy with Western values. After the fall of the Soviet Union, there was a small window of opportunity for this scenario to play out but that time is long gone. In many respects, it is one of the biggest geopolitical fumbles of the Western world in the latter half of the 20th century. The problem being that neither side really trusted the other enough to make the necessary concessions and investment of resources to make it happen.

Once the West fumbled that geopolitical golden opportunity, the West had to come to terms with the sobering realization of a fairly economically impoverished, hopelessly corrupt, loosely aligned federation of different ethnic republics having the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. In short, a pretty nightmarish scenario for world stability.

Enter Putin. A KGB agent who is able to wrangle the mafia state into submission while simultaneously being very well-versed in geopolitics. This combination placates the West's two biggest fears with Russia:

1) Russia Federation disintegrating with 6,000+ nukes. The disintegration concerns run along two tracks; the disintegration of the federation, republics -> new countries or the disintegration of the functional federal government resulting in a lack of control over the 6,000+ nukes.

2) Irrational control over 6,000+ nukes. Putin, despite his anti-Western values, it a rational and logical individual who is obsessed with his legacy. Thus, he is never going to press the proverbial red button unless there are inbound nukes to Moscow or an unstoppable army on the outskirts of Moscow. Putin's replacement, whomever that may be in the future, is not guaranteed to have these same qualities. Thus, the West is keen on being mindful between hating Putin's tactic geopolitics (expanding Russian influence) and his completely safe strategic geopolitics (not going into a hot war with NATO).

Now, fast-forward to the present day state of the conflict. Russia's economy is on the verge of collapse. Russia's army is on the verge of collapse (they are using donkeys on the frontlines). Russia is taking unbelievable causalities. Their conventional army could be defeated my NATO in a matter of days (something totally unthinkable prior to 2022). Most of the causalities are from the republics outside of Moscow and St. Petersburg which has the twofold effect of destabilizing those outside republics from there men dying and having to pull increasingly more bodies from Moscow and St. Petersburg. Oh, lets not even mention China's growing interest in their former traditional territory (rich in resources) and the growing power imbalance between those two countries.

All this to say, it is getting quite dangerous for the West's long-term strategic interests. In short, the West was able to dramatically weaken Russia and Putin for pennies on the dollar and without losing a single solider. A massive geopolitical win for the West. Unfortunately for Ukraine, the West is now in a position where they are getting increasingly less return on their investment and could end up getting massively wiped out (geopolitically) if they push too hard resulting in the fall of Putin.
 
Europe owes us a fat portion of that. I'm glad you brought this up. We need a calculation of our "fully loaded" annual expenses to protect backstabbing Europe.

Of course there is the circumstance our military has never passed an audit. So that figure could be higher.
WTF are you talking about? Such misdirected animosity.
 
Well, they stopped all transit on 1/1/2025, and Europe has had 3 years to make other arrangements, so given the alternative, I doubt Ukraine cares if it could bring an end to Putin's ability to wage war sooner.

No they did not ...

 
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