War in Ukraine

#85,530
#85,530
McDad said:
Why was Ukraine denied? The other NATO countries voted against their membership, correct?
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yes, two of the big dogs said no pretty early, I want to say Germany and France, before Ukraine was given the checklist.

they brought up the corruption as well as antagonizing Russia. FWIW, even though they have made improvements Ukraine would still be the most corrupt member of NATO. *I missed Turkey on the list, Turkey is more corrupt, no one else is even within 20 spots of Ukraine on the Corruption Index*

the checklist usually includes requirements on military, "democracy", and economic/social requirements. you don't have to check every box, but the more you do the more likely you ar eto be approved. each checklist (MAP, membership action plan) is customized to the nation and the times. I don't think a nation has ever got a MAP, been rejected, come back to try again, and get a new/different MAP, but theoretically that is how it would work. usually the talks break down before the MAP, like they did with Ukraine and Georgia.
 
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#85,531
#85,531
TheDeeble said:
Obviously. I'm just saying when it comes to actually ending the war the opinions from the EU/Ukraine appear to be "No" and the opinion from Russia also appears to be "No".
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So let them have at it and keep our money and troops at home.

We'll lend you money to rebuild when you've destroyed yourselves though......... Assuming they don't go MAD.
 
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#85,532
#85,532
KB5252 said:
Protest is fine. Taking over parts of campus and denying access to others, vandalism and assault are not legal means of protest.

As long as you do none of the above and obey laws and lawful instructions by the authorities/faculty you should be golden.

I don't hear you decrying basic civil rights being trampled throughout Europe.


By the way what did any of that have to do with Ukraine and Europe
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Gather you missed the whole Vietnam era. Protesting students were right in hindsight, weren't they?
 
#85,534
#85,534
#85,537
#85,537
BeardedVol said:
Putin hasn't honored a ceasefire prior to this, I doubt anyone expects him to now, especially since he's given no indication that he's even remotely willing to stop prosecuting this war.
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Which goes back to the original question. What does one do to actually end this war? Trump seems to be the only one actually attempting something to bring it to an end, although I suspect for selfish reasons. I think a lot of that is him just wanting to take the credit for ending it. Sure the killing will stop, but he will want the credit for that in the history books.
 
#85,538
#85,538
LouderVol said:
yes, two of the big dogs said no pretty early, I want to say Germany and France, before Ukraine was given the checklist.

they brought up the corruption as well as antagonizing Russia. FWIW, even though they have made improvements Ukraine would still be the most corrupt member of NATO. *I missed Turkey on the list, Turkey is more corrupt, no one else is even within 20 spots of Ukraine on the Corruption Index*

the checklist usually includes requirements on military, "democracy", and economic/social requirements. you don't have to check every box, but the more you do the more likely you ar eto be approved. each checklist (MAP, membership action plan) is customized to the nation and the times. I don't think a nation has ever got a MAP, been rejected, come back to try again, and get a new/different MAP, but theoretically that is how it would work. usually the talks break down before the MAP, like they did with Ukraine and Georgia.
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Summary: politics between other countries and Ukraine is a corrupt backwater country?
 
#85,539
#85,539
BeardedVol said:
www.france24.com

Merkel defends 2008 decision to block Ukraine from NATO

Former German chancellor Angela Merkel on Monday defended her 2008 decision to block Ukraine from immediately joining NATO, rejecting President Volodymyr Zelensky's criticism as Russia's invasion clouds…
www.france24.com www.france24.com

Germany and France wanted to keep cheap Russian gas flowing.
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This. Germany got into bed with Russia years ago to ensure its energy situation. Turned out to be less than a fine decision.

Again, bad things happen when Germans go full on... ummm... special.
 
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#85,540
#85,540
MontyPython said:
No. Only the US and Germany are among the majors opposing Ukraine from joining NATO.

"At least seven countries are against Ukraine’s immediate membership to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), including Germany and the United States, as well as Hungary, Slovakia, Slovenia, Belgium, and Spain, according to Politico, citing four anonymous U.S. and NATO officials and diplomats. "
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Other posters say France, too.
 
#85,546
#85,546
TheDeeble said:
Which goes back to the original question. What does one do to actually end this war? Trump seems to be the only one actually attempting something to bring it to an end, although I suspect for selfish reasons. I think a lot of that is him just wanting to take the credit for ending it. Sure the killing will stop, but he will want the credit for that in the history books.
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I agree mostly I think. I just think the way he is going about it is shocking to the various systems in place. I also think it may be less likely to stick if multiple sides don't feel like everyone is pulling the same direction.

I think the problem is Europe is pulling in a bunch of different directions at the same time.

I hope it's successful and I hope Ukraine gets concessions and assurances it finds acceptable.
 
#85,547
#85,547
MontyPython said:
Heh. Good question. What lengths would you be willing to go to in support of something you felt really strong about?

More importantly would you agree that people protesting against the vietnam war were actually right?
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To answer we have to define what are protests (constitutionally protected) and what are riots?
 
#85,548
#85,548
MontyPython said:
Heh. Good question. What lengths would you be willing to go to in support of something you felt really strong about?

More importantly would you agree that people protesting against the vietnam war were actually right?
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Those not breaking the law were right unless they were wrong.

Many protestors spit on and assaulted young men calling them murderers and baby killers........ Were they all right? Not every soldier murdered people, killed babies. Not every soldier is a war hero.

All right and all wrong never exists outside of propaganda.

The law is blind, it's not supposed to have carve outs for ....... But I really, really thought it was the right thing at the time.
 
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#85,549
#85,549
TheDeeble said:
Which goes back to the original question. What does one do to actually end this war? Trump seems to be the only one actually attempting something to bring it to an end, although I suspect for selfish reasons. I think a lot of that is him just wanting to take the credit for ending it. Sure the killing will stop, but he will want the credit for that in the history books.
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You give Ukraine the weapons it needs to kill enough invaders and damage enough oil and gas facilities to change Putin's mind.

The war only continues because Putin keeps waging it. No amount of handwringing from Trump will force Putin to stop if he doesn't want to, and cutting off Ukraine from military aid just gets mor Ukrainians killed.
 
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