War in Ukraine

#13,001
#13,001
AM64 said:
I admit I didn't actually think Putin would do it. Imagine the difference if the UN had acted in a timely manner and put peacekeepers on the Ukrainian border and established Ukraine as a no fly zone.
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Let me ask you a serious question. Do you really think UN peacekeepers would have been the answer?

And how would the UN have been able to enforce a no-fly zone?

Lastly, what would have been the problem with simply leaving Ukraine as a neutral state or at least acknowledging Russia's security concerns about NATO moving eastward?
 
#13,002
#13,002
AM64 said:
Compared to the reactors produced by other countries Russian plants weren't that safe. Keep in mind I retired a long time ago, and I haven't kept up with developments. Generally speaking places like Russia and China have lower regard for human life, so they aren't as worried about safety; I wouldn't expect that to have changed a lot.
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Weren't as in the past? Or aren't as in right now? Your original comment said in recent history. I'm just wondering what happened recently to make that comment.
 
#13,010
#13,010
Rasputin_Vol said:
Let me ask you a serious question. Do you really think UN peacekeepers would have been the answer?

And how would the UN have been able to enforce a no-fly zone?

Lastly, what would have been the problem with simply leaving Ukraine as a neutral state or at least acknowledging Russia's security concerns about NATO moving eastward?
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I honestly don't know about how effective peacekeepers might be, but it's one thing to invade a country and another to invade a country when it involves the lives of accredited people monitoring the situation. You'd think even Putin would grasp that.

Enforcing a no fly zone certainly involves a lot of risk; but at one point prior to WW2, people decided that allowing Germany to invade neighbors would be OK and not lead to anything more serious. Ukraine as a "neutral" state is just fodder for the Russians to take over while the rest of the world wrings its hands. I also wouldn't propose that any single nation go it alone to protect Ukraine; that's why we have the UN and defense pacts between nations like NATO. Perhaps if the UN is useless in times like this, we should dissolve it.

I absolutely disagree with your thoughts about NATO expansion as a Russian threat. NATO hasn't attacked another country. If Russia sees a mutual defense pact like NAYO as a threat, then Russia is doing something wrong.
 
#13,012
#13,012
Rasputin_Vol said:
Weren't as in the past? Or aren't as in right now? Your original comment said in recent history. I'm just wondering what happened recently to make that comment.
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Nothing specific other than I just haven't kept up with nuclear technology since retirement. Not much need since we haven't been building plants lately. When I think Russian; it's basically rude and crude. Russians have some extremely intelligent and competent people - I worked with engineers from old Soviet bloc countries and they were very well educated, but we have different ideas about public safety and equipment reliability than they do.
 
#13,013
#13,013
#13,014
#13,014
AM64 said:
I absolutely disagree with your thoughts about NATO expansion as a Russian threat. NATO hasn't attacked another country. If Russia sees a mutual defense pact like NAYO as a threat, then Russia is doing something wrong.
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A defense pact... defense against who?
 
#13,015
#13,015
At this point, sad as it is, I think the inevitable truth is that Russia will have control of all of Ukraine, and small-scale revolts will be the norm there. Innocent people will die, and they will live in perpetual strife. There's nothing the world can do without risking WW3 or the nuclear option.

Funny thing is: if this happened 20 years ago, we would hardly even notice.
 
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#13,016
#13,016
Rasputin_Vol said:
A defense pact... defense against who?
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Russia maybe? Let's say you have a border state like Poland between Russia and Germany, and Poland is nonaligned like Ukraine. Russia decides ... again they want to take Poland through a proxy like Belarus or a captured Ukraine, should Germany and some others resign from NATO because their border threatens Russian territory? Face it Russia wants the old gang back together, and the old gang didn't care much for Russia then and they don't want any part of it now. Doesn't mean they have any hostile intentions toward Russia - they just don't want to be a part of it in any way, shape, or form.

I have agreed often with you on other topics, but on this one you are the Lone Ranger, and you don't seem to align with anybody ... we definitely aren't going to agree.
 
#13,017
#13,017
kiddiedoc said:
At this point, sad as it is, I think the inevitable truth is that Russia will have control of all of Ukraine, and small-scale revolts will be the norm there. Innocent people will die, and they will live in perpetual strife. There's nothing the world can do without risking WW3 or the nuclear option.

Funny thing is: if this happened 20 years ago, we would hardly even notice.
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And Putin will move on to Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland etc...
 
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#13,021
#13,021
kiddiedoc said:
At this point, sad as it is, I think the inevitable truth is that Russia will have control of all of Ukraine, and small-scale revolts will be the norm there. Innocent people will die, and they will live in perpetual strife. There's nothing the world can do without risking WW3 or the nuclear option.

Funny thing is: if this happened 20 years ago, we would hardly even notice.
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Anything that could have been done to prevent it had to be done well before Russia invaded. However, nothing was ever going to be done with Biden as President. Our enemies know that. That is why it is open season on Ukraine, Taiwan, etc. Projecting extreme weakness to the world invites disaster.
 
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#13,022
#13,022
AM64 said:
Russia maybe? Let's say you have a border state like Poland between Russia and Germany, and Poland is nonaligned like Ukraine. Russia decides ... again they want to take Poland through a proxy like Belarus or a captured Ukraine, should Germany and some others resign from NATO because their border threatens Russian territory? Face it Russia wants the old gang back together, and the old gang didn't care much for Russia then and they don't want any part of it now. Doesn't mean they have any hostile intentions toward Russia - they just don't want to be a part of it in any way, shape, or form.

I have agreed often with you on other topics, but on this one you are the Lone Ranger, and you don't seem to align with anybody ... we definitely aren't going to agree.
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Russia... interesting. Well lets look at history. Poland, France and Germany have been just as much of a threat (if not more so) to Russia than the other way around. So with these mutual spats, wouldn't the sensible and pragmatic option be to go to separate corners or have buffers between Russia and everyone else? How is providing a buffer zone between the two spheres unreasonable?

Also, are you sure its just Russia? As you read this, keep in mind of what NATO stands for (North Atlantic Treaty Organization)...

NATO’s Pivot to China: A Challenging Path
As NATO leaders gathered in London in December 2019, Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg made repeated calls on the need for the alliance to adapt to a new challenge for NATO: China. “We have to address the fact that China is coming closer to us” in Africa, in the Arctic, in the cyberspace, and even in Europe, he notably stressed to support his case.
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Those crafty Chinese... moving China closer to Europe. So they feel threatened. Hmmmm... isn't that interesting. So when China moves closer to Europe, NATO feels compelled to get more concerned. But when NATO moves east to Russia, we expect Russia to not have the same concerns?

Europe’s Overlooked Missile Defence Dilemma

This view was enforced after 2009, when the Bush project was scaled down by the Obama administration. Unlike the previous plan, which focused on defending the United States against Iran’s hypothetical intercontinental missiles, the new plan—the so-called European Phased Adaptive Approach (EPAA)—was to protect Europe from Iran’s existing missile capabilities.
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OK so here, the claim is that Iran poses a threat to NATO. I suppose those damn Iranians are moving closer to Europe and America, also. So now they feel threatened.
 
#13,023
#13,023
Vol423 said:
Reading comprehension classes apparently. Do you see that phrase, “unless things have changed dramatically recently”? That means unless things have changed dramatically recently.
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And that is exactly what I highlighted and specifically asked about. What has happened recently to generate that comment?

Maybe I'm not the one with the reading comprehension issues.
 
#13,024
#13,024
Vol423 said:
Anything that could have been done to prevent it had to be done well before Russia invaded. However, nothing was ever going to be done with Biden as President. Our enemies know that. That is why it is open season on Ukraine, Taiwan, etc. Projecting extreme weakness to the world invites disaster.
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The opportunity was there in 2013-2015. The West didn't get their way, so they chose to play the regime change game and made sure the leadership in Ukraine did not follow the Minsk II agreements.
 
#13,025
#13,025
Rasputin_Vol said:
And that is exactly what I highlighted and specifically asked about. What has happened recently to generate that comment?

Maybe I'm not the one with the reading comprehension issues.
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Anybody with a rudimetary understanding of the English language understands that he is saying that he doesn’t know if anything has dramatically changed recently. Perhaps your issue is that you’re more familiar with your first love: Russian.
 
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