War in Ukraine

[allvol123]

There is no way to eliminate him quickly I'm afraid.

Very improbable. Hope there are smarter and more capable people at work on it. But letting him get his way via nuclear threat isn’t really a good plan. That doesn’t end. So then, you think you can just let him have his way until he dies naturally? Possibly. But that is a crazy route in and of itself.

 

[NCFisher]

The Trump campaign’s interactions with Russian intelligence services during the 2016 presidential election posed a “grave” counterintelligence threat, a Senate panel concluded Tuesday as it detailed how associates of Donald Trump had regular contact with Russians and expected to benefit from the Kremlin’s help.
“Taken as a whole, Manafort’s high-level access and willingness to share information with individuals closely affiliated with the Russian intelligence services, particularly Kilimnik, represented a grave counterintelligence threat,” the report says.

Well, no; the committee report does not contain that language in your first sentence. Here's what NYT/you allude to:
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(U) The Committee found that Manafort's presence on the Campaign and proximity to Trump created opportunities for Russian intelligence services to exert influence over, and acquire confidential information on, the Trump Campaign. Taken as a whole, Manafort's highlevel access and willingness to share information with individuals closely affiliated with the Russian intelligence services, particularly Kilimnik and associates of Oleg Deripaska, represented a grave counterintelligence threat.

No where is the language you bolded - expected to benefit from the Kremlin’s help - found, nor proximate language. The allusion is to the Trump tower meeting:
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(U) The Committee found that it was the intent of the Campaign participants in the meeting, particularly Donald Trump Jr., to receive derogatory information that would be of benefit to the Campaign from a source known, at least by Trump Jr., to have connections to the Russian government. Actions were taken by Campaign participants to operationalize that intent. The Committee found no reliable evidence that information of benefit to the Trump Campaign was transmitted at the June 9, 2016 meeting, or that Trump had foreknowledge of the June 9, 2016 meeting. (U) The information that Natalia Veselnitskaya, the Russian lawyer, offered during the June 9, 2016 meeting, and planned to offer again at the follow up meeting requested by Aras Agalarov, was part of a broader influence operation targeting the United States that was coordinated, at least in part, with elements of the Russian government. That Russian effort was focused on U.S. sanctions against Russia.....

The committee found no evidence that meeting participants from the Campaign were aware of this Russian influence operation when accepting the meeting or participating in it. Participants on both sides of the meeting were ultimately disappointed with how it transpired.
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Sort of hard to cahoot when you're not cahooting, eh? The FBI interviewed Anatoli Samochornov, the translator facilitating the meeting, who testified there was no talk of collusion between the campaign and Kremlin or agents of. Mueller concealed this exculpatory 302 information:
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Fourteen of the 448 pages of the Mueller Report are devoted to laying out in great detail the chronology and circumstances of the Trump Tower meeting. There are no mentions of Samochornov’s flat denial of collusion or his corroboration of Trump Jr.’s description of the meeting as benign, even though report footnotes list the translator's FBI interview nine times with little elaboration. Buried From Trump Tower Meeting: Translator Telling FBI 'No Collusion' | RealClearInvestigations
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The last assertion is most interesting and I thought you'd go there.

Manafort served the Obama WH as facilitator and intel gatherer regarding Ukraine and Russia. Not only was his partnership with Kilimnik well-known but the Obama State dept. considered him such a valuable asset the Obama WH took great pains to keep his identity secret. Their working relationship with Obama and other EU nations was well-known to Mueller. After using the meme of 'sharing sensitive polling data with Russians' to ignite collusion fervor, Mueller's team walked back the claim quietly, in effect smearing without directly alleging. There's no proof Manafort did anything with Ukrainians and Russians but try to use association with the campaign to solicit for his personal business interest.

But SHAZAAM! - when the duo performs the same function for Trump, they're suddenly 'grave' national security risks and Russian intel officers. Funny how that works, huh? Ukrainian flagged as intel danger to Trump had extensive contact with Obama officials, memos show
Accused Russiagate 'Spy' Kilimnik Speaks -- and Evidence Backs His 'No Collusion' Account

The Senate committee completely whiffed on this. In 2019, a federal judge rebuked Mueller for positioning Kilimnik as a Russian intel officer with no proof. To this date and not withstanding the Biden Treasury claim in April 2021, there is no evidence to date that Kilimnik is an intel officer or passed info to the Russian government. For that matter, there is no evidence that Russia or anyone else hacked DNC servers; Crowdstrike backed off that public claim when sworn in. Most strikingly:
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If CrowdStrike's role in the investigation raises a red flag, the potential exclusion of another entity raises an equally glaring one. According to former NSA Technical Director Bill Binney, the NSA is the only U.S. agency that could conclusively determine the source of the alleged DNC email hacks. "If this was really an internet hack, the NSA could easily tell us when the information was taken and the route it took after being removed from the [DNC] server," Binney says. But given Mueller's qualified language and his repeated use of "in or around" rather than outlining specific, down-to-the-second timestamps – which the NSA could provide -- Binney is skeptical that NSA intelligence was included in the GRU indictment and the report. CrowdStrikeOut: Mueller’s Own Report Undercuts Its Core Russia-Meddling Claims

WikiLeaks Assange and Craig Murray have been adamant since day one that the DNC hack was not a hack at all, but his source was a non-state actor with an axe to grind against the Clinton foundation and campaign, and how DNC conspired with her against Bernie; a person with authorized access to the servers.
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So, even a thing the public has been conditioned by government and media to accept as fact, simply isn't. And such a simple, obvious thing that the NSA can answer the question in a hot minute, has eluded the media you trust that never asks the question. Never questioned why FBI and Mueller would allow themselves to be denied access to the servers by the DNC and Clinton. Why is that?

With government like this, who needs 'Q'?
To come current, did you hear about those DNC/Clinton-funded dossier and Alfa Bank schemes?

 

[VolStrom]

My solution is grounded in MAD. It's worked for 70 years.

Putin knows that if he uses nukes, Russia will be nuked.

There is no winner.

If he's rationale, he'll never launch nukes. If he's irrational, we're all already f*cked.

Thus, we should NEVER allow our policy to be dictated by threats of nuclear war.

Putin started this war. We need to make sure Ukraine survives. That's what this is all about.

Putin started this war. We need to make sure Ukraine survives. That's what this is all about.

Since when is it our job to defend Ukraine? Personally, I don't want them to be toppled by Russia, but I damn sure am not going to get in a nuclear war with Russia if they are. If you're so worried about Ukraine, pack your butt up and head over there and volunteer to be a mercenary.

 

[rocytop2624]

Poland sending Ukraine migs

 

[luthervol]

So, what's your strategy then? If Putin threatens to use nuclear weapons, we just cave in to whatever he demands?

It really doesn't make sense.
Many claim that one of the things that made Trump effective was the fact that he was crazy enough to just maybe use nukes.
The assumption being that those leaders did not step out of line because they wished to avoid nuclear conflict.
Now they are saying that we can't keep those same leaders from stepping out of line because they might resort to nuclear conflict.

It can't be both.

 

[KB5252]

Very improbable. Hope there are smarter and more capable people at work on it. But letting him get his way via nuclear threat isn’t really a good plan. That doesn’t end. So then, you think you can just let him have his way until he dies naturally? Possibly. But that is a crazy route in and of itself.

I agree, but escalating and possibly forcing his hand is equally crazy and problematic. Whatever we do must be well thought out and measured.

 

[USF grad in TN]

Wouldn't it be easier to just lend-lease them some of our older jets?

*Enter the top gun music with Ukrainian pilots flying in on F14s"

They want the MiG 29s because that's what they are trained to fly.
They don't want to learn a new plane right now.

 

[tvolsfan]

When he attacks a member of NATO. Until then we sell weapons to any and all former Soviet block countries, provide intel, and sanction the crap out of him until he's broke.

Agree completely. Right now we make his life hard. He attacks a NATO ally, and it’s war.

 

[rocytop2624]

So just to play devil's advocate, if we stop buying Russian oil, then that's an opportunity for our domestic oil industry to produce more and fill the void, wouldn't you agree? Are you opposed to our domestic oil industry producing more?

Drill baby drill

 

[KB5252]

So, at what point do you "force the hand"? If you allow Putin to take Ukraine and its 44M democratic people, where do you draw the line?

As tough as it sounds if you force me to make a decision right now I'd side with possibly losing 44 million over losing 90% or more of the worlds' population with little to no hope of future for our race.

 

[MontyPython]

Since when is it our job to defend Ukraine? Personally, I don't want them to be toppled by Russia, but I damn sure am not going to get in a nuclear war with Russia if they are. If you're so worried about Ukraine, pack your butt up and head over there and volunteer to be a mercenary.

A recent Reuters/Ipsos poll found that 74% of Americans across the political spectrum support a no-fly zone.

Seems you're in a minority.

Also, question: Do you think it was wrong that FDR declared war on Germany in 1941?

 

[evillawyer]

Hey Siri, show me an example of something self-defeating.

 

[evillawyer]

 

[Matt2496]

A recent Reuters/Ipsos poll found that 74% of Americans across the political spectrum support a no-fly zone.

Seems you're in a minority.

Also, question: Do you think it was wrong that FDR declared war on Germany in 1941?

That poll just demonstrates that a large swath of America are absolute idiots with no critical thinking skills or even basic military understanding.

 

[apevol]

It really doesn't make sense.
Many claim that one of the things that made Trump effective was the fact that he was crazy enough to just maybe use nukes.
The assumption being that those leaders did not step out of line because they wished to avoid nuclear conflict.
Now they are saying that we can't keep those same leaders from stepping out of line because they might resort to nuclear conflict.

It can't be both.

this is a fluid situation

 

[MontyPython]

That poll just demonstrates that a large swath of America are absolute idiots with no critical thinking skills or even basic military understanding.

Well, we did elect Trump as our President, so you're 100% correct.

 

[rocytop2624]

https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-700709
"The authorities of the Republic of Poland...are ready to deploy – immediately and free of charge – all their MIG-29 jets to the Rammstein Air Base and place them at the disposal of the Government of the United States of America," the ministry said.

Are we going to be flying those planes and pretend it’s the Ukrainians flying them?

What I don't understand is Ukraine still has jets and I haven't heard of them using them.

 

[Vol737]

Right. Well, the alternative has always been MAD. Putin could go nuts and nuke the world if he loses. It's a risk.

But the question is, are we going to let Putin dictate our policy by threatening world destruction?

I get what you’re saying, but I would hold off on that. Right now Ukraine is being supplied significant weaponry, willing and very able/capable of using it. If Russia gets bogged down further and we’ve not shown significant provocation more than what we’re doing already, I think there’s less of a chance Putin goes scorched earth. I think making the wiggle room obvious to him is the right call. That could change, though. We would just have to wait and see, deal with it then.

 

[MontyPython]

I get what you’re saying, but I would hold off on that. Right now Ukraine is being supplied significant weaponry, willing and very able/capable of using it. If Russia gets bogged down further and we’ve not shown significant provocation more than what we’re doing already, I think there’s less of a chance Putin goes scorched earth. I think making the wiggle room obvious to him is the right call. That could change, though. We would just have to wait and see, deal with it then.

Fair call. And I agree. Which is why I'm thinking approve it now, but hold off.

 

[Franklin Pierce]

Heartbreaking Pictures Show Ukrainian Children Hiding in a Bomb Shelter in Mariupol as Russian troops lay siege to city where Girl, Six, has Died of Thirst After Water Was Cut Off

Heartbreaking pictures have emerged of Ukrainian children, trapped in the besieged port city of Mariupol, hiding in shelters from Russian bombs as the occupiers continued their indiscriminate bombing campaigns today.

Mariupol is one of the Ukrainian cities worst hit since the invasion began, with Russian forces bringing widespread destruction to residential and administrative centres.

Ukrainian territorial defence forces have been able to deliver vital supplies to some residents, but many more remain isolated and unable to access lifesaving rations.

One six-year-old girl, named only has Tanya, has already died of thirst after she became trapped under the rubble of her destroyed home.

It is not known how long the girl had been under the ruins of her home before she died, but her mother was also found dead at the scene.

'In the last minutes of her life she was alone, exhausted, frightened and terribly thirsty,' Mayor Vadym Boychenko said on the city's Telegram channel.

Heartbreaking pictures have emerged of Ukrainian children, trapped in the besieged port city of Mariupol, hiding in shelters from Russian bombs as the occupiers continued their indiscriminate bombing campaigns today

President Volodymyr Zelensky said people stuck in the blockaded urban centre are beginning to suffer from a lack of supplies as the city runs dangerously low on food, water and medicine

People help an elderly woman to walk in a street with an apartment building hit by shelling in the background in Mariupol, Ukraine, Monday, March 7, 2022

Ukrainian territorial defence forces have been able to deliver vital supplies to some residents, but many more remain isolated and unable to access lifesaving rations

People queue to receive hot food in the improvised bomb shelter in Mariupol, Ukraine, Monday, March 7, 2022

The dead body of a person lies covered in the street in the besieged port city of Mariupol, Ukraine, Monday, March 7, 2022

A girl sits in the improvised bomb shelter in Mariupol, Ukraine, Monday, March 7, 2022

Heartbreaking pictures show Ukrainian children hiding in a bomb shelter in besieged Mariupol | Daily Mail Online

 

[OrangeTsar]

Since when is it our job to defend Ukraine? Personally, I don't want them to be toppled by Russia, but I damn sure am not going to get in a nuclear war with Russia if they are. If you're so worried about Ukraine, pack your butt up and head over there and volunteer to be a mercenary.

I agree in principle. The problem is that Ukraine only gave up its inherited Nuke arsenal in response to Clinton’s promise to protect (not militarily necessarily) Ukraine’s territorial integrity. We sort of have hung them out to dry after they trusted us. Not that we really could do more right now without risking a dangerous escalation; but it doesn’t look good for the US’s trustworthiness

 

[volbound1700]

Well, we did elect Biden as our President, so you're 100% correct.

Fixed it for you.

 

[rocytop2624]

I agree in principle. The problem is that Ukraine only gave up its inherited Nuke arsenal in response to Clinton’s promise to protect (not militarily necessarily) Ukraine’s territorial integrity. We sort of have hung them out to dry after they trusted us. Not that we really could do more right now without risking a dangerous escalation; but it doesn’t look good for the US’s trustworthiness

They messed up and trusted Clinton.

 

[OrangeTsar]

They messed up and trusted Clinton.

A lot of people made the same mistake. Myself included

 

[VolStrom]

I agree in principle. The problem is that Ukraine only gave up its inherited Nuke arsenal in response to Clinton’s promise to protect (not militarily necessarily) Ukraine’s territorial integrity. We sort of have hung them out to dry after they trusted us. Not that we really could do more right now without risking a dangerous escalation; but it doesn’t look good for the US’s trustworthiness

Well, Clinton was a democrat. So if his lips were moving, he was lying, no matter what that meant to the next generation or two.