War in Ukraine

[volinbham]

Threaten nukes like the fat kid in the DPRK.

nukes isn't just neighboring countries.

I'm saying the "you're next" narrative doesn't match reality unless the "you're" in question is the entire Western world.

 

[volinbham]

Autocrat asks autocrat to help sustain autocracy. So we ignore Crimea? LOL.

No one is ignoring Crimea - it just wasn't germane to the specific conversation. Ras was correct in his answer to your query.

If all is fair game then autocrats have asked democracies (the US) to help sustain autocracies and we've obliged repeatedly.

Now does that answer your specific question about Syria?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Ohh... much like they were invited to Crimea.

You mean the same Crimea that has been Russian since before there was a United States? The same Crimea that was only given to The Ukraine by Khrushchev when it was the USSR? You mean the same Crimea that has the Black Sea Fleet at Sevastopol? You mean the same Crimea that had a referendum after the US lead coup in Kiev where the voted overwhelmingly to join Russia?

 

[clarksvol00]

No one is ignoring Crimea - it just wasn't germane to the specific conversation. Ras was correct in his answer to your query.

Now it is germane. Ras listed the situations he could try to defend. I asked him about one he didn't include (probably intentionally).

 

[clarksvol00]

You mean the same Crimea that has been Russian since before there was a United States? The same Crimea that was only given to The Ukraine by Khrushchev when it was the USSR? You mean the same Crimea that has the Black Sea Fleet at Sevastopol? You mean the same Crimea that had a referendum after the US lead coup in Kiev where the voted overwhelmingly to join Russia?

That's right, the Crimea that was part of a separate sovereign state.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Anyone who is claiming that Ukraine is just the first step for Russia and that they are going to sweep across the EU is delusional or selling a war because they are clearly not watching facts on the ground nor thinking about Putin's own interests.

These two things can't both be true: Russia is getting their azz kicked in Ukraine and they are going to take over Europe.

Also, Putin wants to rebuild the USSR but turned down the 2015 referendum by the Donbas republics when they wanted to join the Russian Federation and didn't take advantage of the chaos in Kazakhstan just 7 weeks earlier and take it over.

Lastly, those bio labs were just working on safe medical research and we need to be concerned about Russia using bioweapons found at those facilities.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

That's right, the Crimea that was part of a separate sovereign state.

And again... only part of Ukraine because of a random decision made by Khrushchev when it was part of the USSR. Crimea is more Russian than Texas is American.

 

[Hunerwadel]

It is like boiling a frog. It has been a gradual process, but our standard of living has declined. We have gone from a single income being able to comfortably raise a family to needing two (or more) incomes for most. It has gone from being able to work a summer mnimum wage job to pay a year of college (without scholarship) to needing to work 9-12 months on minimum wage to do the same today.

You may be a boiling frog, I'm not. for the most part women started working in the '50s & '60s because they wanted to not because they had to. Owning nice things became desirable and achievable. Women found they could buy their own jewelry, shoes and even a car if they worked a little. Then corporate America wised up and realized they could get two for the price of one and wages adjusted accordingly. My brother was born in '47 and me in '49. When we were 11 or 12 and able to take care of ourselves after school my mother decided to go to work in a department store. She wanted to, she didn't have to.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Now it is germane. Ras listed the situations he could try to defend. I asked him about one he didn't include (probably intentionally).

I didn't do it on purpose. I figured everyone would already know where I stand with regards to Crimea. My apologies.

 

[OrangeTsar]

Crippled domestic petroleum supplies? Aren't we the little drama queen?

Truth hurts doesn’t it?

 

[Franklin Pierce]

The HORROR of Mariupol: Putin Troops Hold 500 Hostages in a Hospital as Human Shields while Premature Babies Are Abandoned By Their Parents – but at least 20,000 civilians have been allowed to flee the besieged city

• Some Ukrainians travelled via a 'humanitarian corridor' set up by Russian military to Rostov region in Russia

Vladimir Putin's troops have seized a hospital in Mariupol and are holding 500 Ukrainians hostage, using them as human shields as attacks on the southern city continue.

Russian forces rounded up 400 people from houses neighbouring the seaport's hospital number two, along with 100 doctors and patients who were already inside, and are refusing to let them leave, according to regional governor Pavlo Kyrylenko.

The terror came against a backdrop of frantic evacuation elsewhere in Mariupol, with around 20,000 fleeing the besieged city along a humanitarian corridor - supposedly safe passages which allow civilians to leave Ukraine.

Amid days of relentless shelling, a mass exodus of civilians in at least 4,000 cars left the seaport via the designated route, which runs west for more than 160 miles to the Ukraine-held city of Zaporizhzhia.

But while families rushed to escape in their droves, there were desperate scenes in Mariupol's hospitals, which continue to be under attack from Putin's forces.

In the city's hospital number three, a heartbreaking picture showed tiny premature children who had been left without parents.

In the city's hospital number three, a heartbreaking picture showed tiny premature children who had been left without parents

Alexandra, 86, cries after her apartment was destroyed by a Russian grad rocket attack in Kharkiv, Ukraine on Tuesday

20,000 evacuees flee hell of Mariupol in humanitarian corridors but many end up in RUSSIA | Daily Mail Online

 

[KB5252]

They had Russians being killed in Donbass and NATO/US putting military assets in their border. We would have done the same thing and been justified in this particular case.

Now going into Syria, Libya, Iraq and Serbia? With no American interests and no American lives put at risk? Totally wrong. If you find an example of Russia invading a foreign country that is no strategic interest to them and no lives being put at risk since Putin has been in charge then I'll condemn it.

No, we wouldn't have. The world would have condemned us for invading a country in which we had been actively sponsoring an armed rebellion.

When Russia weaponized Cuba we didn't go in and and invade Havana and other cities and bomb them into the stone age.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

You may be a boiling frog, I'm not. for the most part women started working in the '50s & '60s because they wanted to not because they had to. Owning nice things became desirable and achievable. Women found they could buy their own jewelry, shoes and even a car if they worked a little. Then corporate America wised up and realized they could get two for the price of one and wages adjusted accordingly. My brother was born in '47 and me in '49. When we were 11 or 12 and able to take care of ourselves after school my mother decided to go to work in a department store. She wanted to, she didn't have to.

I'm not speaking necessarily of me personally, but the country as a whole.

 

[clarksvol00]

And again... only part of Ukraine because of a random decision made by Khrushchev when it was part of the USSR. Crimea is more Russian than Texas is American.

Ahhh... okay for Russians to go into a Western drawn state to support rebels in Ukraine, okay for Russians to go in to defend autocratic government in western drawn state in Syria. I get it, whatever Russians do is ok.

 

[DuckInAPen]

Autocrat asks autocrat to help sustain autocracy. So we ignore Crimea? LOL.

The Syrian autocrat restrains some very nasty elements in that country and does a better job than most in the region of protecting the Christian community. A freer, fairer Syria would no doubt be desirable, but we all saw what happened when we overthrew the Ba'athist to the east.

 

[clarksvol00]

I didn't do it on purpose. I figured everyone would already know where I stand with regards to Crimea. My apologies.

We all know where you stand with anything Russia does.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

The HORROR of Mariupol: Putin Troops Hold 500 Hostages in a Hospital as Human Shields while Premature Babies Are Abandoned By Their Parents – but at least 20,000 civilians have been allowed to flee the besieged city

• Some Ukrainians travelled via a 'humanitarian corridor' set up by Russian military to Rostov region in Russia

Vladimir Putin's troops have seized a hospital in Mariupol and are holding 500 Ukrainians hostage, using them as human shields as attacks on the southern city continue.

Russian forces rounded up 400 people from houses neighbouring the seaport's hospital number two, along with 100 doctors and patients who were already inside, and are refusing to let them leave, according to regional governor Pavlo Kyrylenko.

The terror came against a backdrop of frantic evacuation elsewhere in Mariupol, with around 20,000 fleeing the besieged city along a humanitarian corridor - supposedly safe passages which allow civilians to leave Ukraine.

Amid days of relentless shelling, a mass exodus of civilians in at least 4,000 cars left the seaport via the designated route, which runs west for more than 160 miles to the Ukraine-held city of Zaporizhzhia.

But while families rushed to escape in their droves, there were desperate scenes in Mariupol's hospitals, which continue to be under attack from Putin's forces.

In the city's hospital number three, a heartbreaking picture showed tiny premature children who had been left without parents.

In the city's hospital number three, a heartbreaking picture showed tiny premature children who had been left without parents

Alexandra, 86, cries after her apartment was destroyed by a Russian grad rocket attack in Kharkiv, Ukraine on Tuesday

20,000 evacuees flee hell of Mariupol in humanitarian corridors but many end up in RUSSIA | Daily Mail Online

So they allow 20k people to evacuate and they use 500 as human shields?

And this makes sense to you?

 

[clarksvol00]

The Syrian autocrat restrains some very nasty elements in that country and does a better job than most in the region of protecting the Christian community. A freer, fairer Syria would no doubt be desirable, but we all saw what happened when we overthrew the Ba'athist to the east.

I'm not a believer in the philosophy that some people deserve to live under the thumb of an autocratic while others don't.

 

[Hunerwadel]

I'm not speaking necessarily of me personally, but the country as a whole.

I know, I just always crack up when someone mentions the boiling frog thing.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

No, we wouldn't have. The world would have condemned us for invading a country in which we had been actively sponsoring an armed rebellion.

World condemnation did not stop us from doing that exact thing in Syria and Libya. The Muslim Brotherood moved weapons from Egypt to Libya, overthrew Khaddaffi, then we shipped/smuggled those weapons to Turkey where they were given to the Free Syrian Army and ISIS.

When Russia weaponized Cuba we didn't go in and and invade Havana and other cities and bomb them into the stone age.

We had tried that about a year before with the Bay of Pigs. Plus, the only reason why the Soviets put missiles in Cuba was in response to the US placing missiles in Turkey.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I'm not a believer in the philosophy that some people deserve to live under the thumb of an autocratic while others don't.

So you believe in the American philosophy of regime change for democracy?

 

[DuckInAPen]

I'm not a believer in the philosophy that some people deserve to live under the thumb of an autocratic while others don't.

It's not a question of deserts; it's a question of what's possible. What succeeded Saddam was not a democratic republic with a bill of rights, but ISIS and the utter destruction of Iraq's ancient Christian community. I have no desire to live in Assad's Syria, but I'd much rather live in Assad's Syria than Abu Sakkar's.

 

[clarksvol00]

It's not a question of deserts; it's a question of what's possible. What succeeded Saddam was not a democratic republic with a bill of rights, but ISIS and the utter destruction of Iraq's ancient Christian community. I have no desire to live in Assad's Syria, but I'd much rather live in Assad's Syria than Abu Sakkar's.

I believe in the ability of a governed people to choose their government.

 

[clarksvol00]

So you believe in the American philosophy of regime change for democracy?

I don't believe in the Russian philosophy of regime change for a Pro-Russian government.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Ahhh... okay for Russians to go into a Western drawn state to support rebels in Ukraine, okay for Russians to go in to defend autocratic government in western drawn state in Syria. I get it, whatever Russians do is ok.

You are emotional right now because you don't like seeing your country be the bad guy that stirs up a lot of these problems.