War in Ukraine

[Septic]

No, but everyone that started the revolution, got kickbacks, and covered up corruption is.

Oh I see. So there are carve outs for blame - would you say withholding legally promised and budgeted military aid while pressuring Ukraine to investigate a political rival ahead of a domestic election is blackmail? Where does that rate on your spectrum of corruption and kickbacks.

Or is that somehow different?

No need to answer, I'm sure that it is.

eyeroll.gif

 

[volgr]

Truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. As I said, Russia has definitely bumbled in some areas. They aren't as disciplined in tactics as the US. They take unnecessary casualties (not nearly as many as Ukr claims) because of it. They made some erroneous assumptions (which is common) at the start. But, like any war, they have learned and adapted and look to be progressing quickly.

 

[evillawyer]

 

[allvol123]

Truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. As I said, Russia has definitely bumbled in some areas. They aren't as disciplined in tactics as the US. They take unnecessary casualties (not nearly as many as Ukr claims) because of it. They made some erroneous assumptions (which is common) at the start. But, like any war, they have learned and adapted and look to be progressing quickly.

Once again you Putin sycophant, there is no war.

 

[Septic]

I dont think anyone, even Ras here, is making the argument that Putin is a good person or even has good intentions. If there is any virtue in his actions it is simply that he has been fighting other evil forces (aka globalists that run Western institutions and governments) that are better at cloaking themselves or portraying themselves as "the good". Putin hasn't done this for any munificent reasons but rather for his own interests. Even so, he represents an obstacle to the globalist's hegemonic power. Yet because he chose to fight a hot war while the globalists wage a cold one from the shadows, it is easier to cheer his downfall because we can more readily see the suffering that his decisions have caused.

Oh, be sure they would make the argument if they thought people would actually buy it; the Russia nut hugging and apologetics has been at times outright comical.

The deflection and whataboutisims are dizzying. They blame and continue to point fingers at everyone except the one man that ordered the invasion and the one man who can make it stop. Their continued nonsensical justification is equitable to condoning the actions, ergo - good intentions.

An easy extrapolation whether one wants to agree with it or not.

Anyhow, the quote you jumped on was after he tried to paint the invasion/war detractors as all being neo-cons.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says “No”

Ill dig for more later. While we can argue about Gorbachev, and it could be said that expansion was clearly provacative, and at one time maybe even considered unthinkable for various reasons, I don't think there's any truth to the narrative that the Soviet union, nor russia itself was ever promised that there would be no expansion.

Putin has been playing games for years (so has the US). He was outmaneuvered and has once again turned to military agression to solve his problems. Im not entirely sure that Ukraine didn't welcome this move, either.

What seems apparent is that Putin's security concerns are related to the financial solvency of his federation, and those issues are largely his own doing by failing to build a less corrupt, more diverse economy. His is a failed presidency and Russia is dying. Has been dying.

I’ll read this a little bit more later on, but it appears the Brookings Institute may be making a subtle distinction between East German expansion and NATO expansion to other regions… and likely taking Gorbachev out of context. Yes, Gorbachev is seeming to say in these quotes that NATO would not expand into East Germany, but it was likely that he was assuming what is said right here:

In 1990, few gave the possibility of a broader NATO enlargement to the east any serious thought.

It is likely that concerns about further NATO expansion did not pop up until shortly afterwards, which is what is discussed here:

Russia’s belief in Nato ‘betrayal’ – and why it matters today

 

[Septic]

Truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. As I said, Russia has definitely bumbled in some areas. They aren't as disciplined in tactics as the US. They take unnecessary casualties (not nearly as many as Ukr claims) because of it. They made some erroneous assumptions (which is common) at the start. But, like any war, they have learned and adapted and look to be progressing quickly.

Here's some truth for ya.

 

[red butler]

Oh I see. So there are carve outs for blame - would you say withholding legally promised and budgeted military aid while pressuring Ukraine to investigate a political rival ahead of a domestic election is blackmail? Where does that rate on your spectrum of corruption and kickbacks.

Or is that somehow different?

No need to answer, I'm sure that it is.

eyeroll.gif

I knew where you were going with this and I'm sure we won't agree. I think the Trump blackmail stuff is wayyy overblown, an empty threat to withhold aid isn't on the same level as overthrowing a government and getting kickbacks. If the previous administration was doing nefarious stuff, and actively threating the security of Russia - I don't have a problem with Trump looking for proof. Because the violence we're witnessing today is likely a direct result of the meddling we did during the Obama administration. There's a reason Putin didn't invade during Trump and I'm not buying Trump was a Russian puppet. I think it's likely because Trump wasn't a fan of NATO and wasn't predictable in his response to an invasion.

 

[KB5252]

Truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. As I said, Russia has definitely bumbled in some areas. They aren't as disciplined in tactics as the US. They take unnecessary casualties (not nearly as many as Ukr claims) because of it. They made some erroneous assumptions (which is common) at the start. But, like any war, they have learned and adapted and look to be progressing quickly.

I see nothing in any of those headlines that would indicate Russia is progressing quickly. If anything this operation appears to be bogging down. I've not seen anything to make me believe Ukraine is winning or making advances but I've seen no real advances on much of the contested areas, a few in the south and east but the maps today look almost identical to those of two weeks ago.

 

[Septic]

I knew where you were going with this and I'm sure we won't agree. I think the Trump blackmail stuff is wayyy overblown, an empty threat to withhold aid isn't on the same level as overthrowing a government and getting kickbacks. If the previous administration was doing nefarious stuff, and actively threating the security of Russia - I don't have a problem with Trump looking for proof. Because the violence we're witnessing today is a direct result of the meddling we did during the Obama administration. There's a reason Putin didn't invade during Trump and I'm not buying Trump was a Russian puppet. I think it's likely because Trump wasn't a fan of NATO and wasn't predictable in his response to an invasion.

I knew you knew, I was just curious how you were going to tap dance around that landmine - and you didn't disappoint with the show.

I just thought you'd have had a better answer than "I think it was wayy overblown" and that "I don't have a problem" with blackmail - of course you don't, so long as it's your guy giving floating the ginned up justification. Yawn.

Take a lap.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

What seems apparent is that Putin's security concerns are related to the financial solvency of his federation, and those issues are largely his own doing by failing to build a less corrupt, more diverse economy. His is a failed presidency and Russia is dying. Has been dying.

I think there is a bit of truth in what you say about wanting to integrate Ukraine into the Russian sphere (along with tying into to the Eurasian Trade Zone and Chinese Belt and Road Initiative). I think the economic tie was going to be a way to help maintain the security issues around Ukraine. Where I will disagree with you is with regards to Putin’s handling of their domestic economy. The threat of sanctions Chas been out there since 2014, and Putin did not want to be vulnerable to Western sanctions and crumble like Iran. So they immediately began to become more self-sufficient and increase a lot of domestic farming and manufacturing. Also, stiffening ties with China also served as a backup plan if the West did move to economic warfare. Russia is in a far better position right now than frankly the US. The US hasn’t even figured out how to overcome the toilet paper issues from 2020, so there is no way we are going to fair well if Russia and now China decide to implement counter-sanctions. Russian energy and Chinese manufacturing over a long haul will hurt us far more than them. That is why it was a ridiculous and provocative move by Biden to go that far with both Russia and China.

 

[utvolpj]

It's as if no one realizes we're in a bit of debt already. But hey, what good are US taxpayers if their politicians can't waste a bunch of money overseas?

 

[red butler]

I knew you knew, I was just curious how you were going to tap dance around that landmine - and you didn't disappoint with the show.

I just thought you'd have had a better answer than "I think it was wayy overblown" and that "I don't have a problem" with blackmail - of course you don't, so long as it's your guy giving floating the ginned up justification. Yawn.

Take a lap.

Oh yeah. Well I knew you knew I knew which is why I didn't waste a ton of time on the answer. And I never said I don't have a problem with blackmail, and Trump isn't my guy.

 

[Septic]

It's as if no one realizes we're in a bit of debt already. But hey, what good are US taxpayers if their politicians can't waste a bunch of money overseas?

I say we auction off the oligarchs assets and use the money to repay ourselves for the war effort or split it with Ukraine. They're going to needs TONS of cash to rebuild.

 

[volgr]

I see nothing in any of those headlines that would indicate Russia is progressing quickly. If anything this operation appears to be bogging down. I've not seen anything to make me believe Ukraine is winning or making advances but I've seen no real advances on much of the contested areas, a few in the south and east but the maps today look almost identical to those of two weeks ago.

They pretty much have Mauripol. They are continuing to close in on the Donbass. It's a slow squeeze. I guess it is relative to your expectations.

 

[allvol123]

It's as if no one realizes we're in a bit of debt already. But hey, what good are US taxpayers if their politicians can't waste a bunch of money overseas?

Yea, sorry we can’t help you with equipment that might keep you from starving and dying, it would add 0.003% to our debt.

Good grief.

 

[volgr]

Here's some truth for ya.

Cute. Your side isn't winning the war, but at least ya got meme's.

 

[Septic]

They pretty much have Mauripol. They are continuing to close in on the Donbass. It's a slow squeeze. I guess it is relative to your expectations.

Imagine having such a sh*tty army that after months of assembling a fighting force and after a month of fighting, you weren't able to fully control a town 100 miles from your border.

LOL

 

[IluvdoubleD's]

If you don't know yet. There was a coup attempt in Russia by the Russian FBS. Russian military and FBS have often been at odds in the past. Putin fired his generals and replaced more than 1000 officials. He is constantly trying to replace "his" people with freshly brainwashed minds. I do not see an all out unleashing from Putin. No one is trying to destroy Russia. The world only wants Russia without Putin. But, If he can let one go on his way out, he will. It depends on the people around him.

 

[volgr]

Yea, sorry we can’t help you with equipment that might keep you from starving and dying, it would add 0.003% to our debt.

Good grief.

Very little of that money will actually help Ukrainians in any meaningful way, but for those feasting on the corruption over there, they are very thankful.

 

[volgr]

Imagine having such a sh*tty army that after months of assembling a fighting force and after a month of fighting, you weren't able to fully control a town 100 miles from your border.

LOL

Gotta take your time and do it right...

 

[allvol123]

Very little of that money will actually help Ukrainians in any meaningful way, but for those feasting on the corruption over there, they are very thankful.

Local Nazi VFW will get new pool tables and exercise equipment.

 

[Gandalf]

Truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. As I said, Russia has definitely bumbled in some areas. They aren't as disciplined in tactics as the US. They take unnecessary casualties (not nearly as many as Ukr claims) because of it. They made some erroneous assumptions (which is common) at the start. But, like any war, they have learned and adapted and look to be progressing quickly.

I can agree that the US take seems overly optimistic to the point of wishful propaganda but where on earth do you get from the UK and French takes that the Russians "have learned and adapted and look to be progressing quickly"?

That is exactly what it is NOT saying. It is not quick at all (due to resistance and/or change in tactics) but a slow grind forward.

 

[volgr]

I can agree that the US take seems overly optimistic to the point of wishful propaganda but where on earth do you get from the UK and French takes that the Russians "have learned and adapted and look to be progressing quickly"?

That is exactly what it is NOT saying. It is not quick at all (due to resistance and/or change in tactics) but a slow grind forward.

The learned and adapted is my take.

 

[utvolpj]

Yea, sorry we can’t help you with equipment that might keep you from starving and dying, it would add 0.003% to our debt.

Good grief.

Oh is that what the US is supposed to do now? Who else gets free stuff from us using that guideline? Maybe Europe could do something instead

Eventually all those .003 add up to real money