War in Ukraine

[volgr]

Americans and Europeans are going to be in for a shock the next few months as they start to feel the negative consequences of Russian sanctions...and who will they blame? Will the average citizen feel it was "worth it" to pick a side in this Regional conflict?

 

[McDad]

You’ll pay more if people like Putin grab more land and resources.

You actually need to be able to prioritize what is just, noble, needed. It is required in personal finances or running a business.

This doesn’t bother me. But hopefully PJ is consistent and posts that issue in every thread where any federal dollars are spent.

Your first sentence is using the common tactics of rationalization and justification. We all use those when we support a decision....ex: i need this new car which costs 65k to save money at the gas pump. Not surprisingly those who support spending on things you deem wasteful would the same tactics of rationalization and justification.

I wish we could prioritize what is worth public money. I am dubious we as a country will ever agree on what is worthy of our debt.

 

[BreatheUT]

I wonder how much of the twitter reports coming out of Ukraine is propaganda vs truth. People are eating it up.

 

[volkyries]

The learned and adapted is my take.

That is how you get yourself into trouble with the Russia haters

I would think a more reasonable assessment just based on those three takes would be the Russians "have adapted from early tactics that resulted in massive and crippling unforced errors and are now progressing forward slowly but surely against fierce resistance".

This conflict is beginning to look a lot like how the Russians went about taking Chechnya, in that first they went in to "liberate" and then when they were not welcomed, they deployed a brutal but thorough subjugation campaign. Not sure that strategy is going to work today in Ukraine, with pop size, large borders with the EU and social media being significant differentiating factors.

Those "assessments" are so general they are basically useless. I don't know where the posted got them, but "advances" could mean just about anything. For example, I am advancing my goal of losing weight by thinking of going to the gym. I am not saying one side or the other is winning or doing better than the other, but those statements definitely don't say that either.

All military endeavors adapt to some degree, but you went many steps beyond that and stated Russia is progressing quickly citing contrary intelligence reports. I'm not seeing anything that indicates things are progressing very well for Russia. If anything it's a slow plodding advance. That isn't ideal for Russia or anyone else. The advances have bogged down and some are flat out stalling. While it's certainly not good for Ukraine this is about as bad as things could go for Russia short of getting beat. They do not appear to have overwhelming superiority on the battlefield.

agreed

 

[utvolpj]

Putin is making moves we haven’t seen in our lives. It isn’t hearsay or intelligence, it is him directly. We are talking money here, so no reason to drag in a “lives” argument.

You are consistent on your fiscal stance and I generally am in your boat. But I doubt you make that post in every thread. I would give high priority to the issue of a mad man in control of a nuclear arsenal. So this money is not a concern to me.

Putin stated his goals years ago and has been doing this for a while. If Europe feels threatened they should step up

This is a very close replica of how Iraq was sold. Turns out that was a govt lie funded by the mic. Hard to move hardware if there's no war to fight

 

[IluvdoubleD's]

Americans are in shock they are not paying higher prices already and are prepared to pay a little more. The highest gas prices are in California (big shocker).

 

[allvol123]

Your first sentence is using the common tactics of rationalization and justification. We all use those when we support a decision....ex: i need this new car which costs 65k to save money at the gas pump. Not surprisingly those who support spending on things you deem wasteful would the same tactics of rationalization and justification.

I wish we could prioritize what is worth public money. I am dubious we as a country will ever agree on what is worthy of our debt.

I will stand by the idea that a mad man waging war and threatening nukes needs to be dealt with and is at the top of a priority list. How that money is best utilized isn’t something I can determine but I am certain it is a priority worthy of expenditures.

 

[volgr]

Law doesn't apply to my opponents...

 

[IluvdoubleD's]

There is a plan here. Smart people see it. It's a long term plan, an "after Putin" plan. Pricess will come down after this. That's why extremists have to attack now.

 

[allvol123]

Putin stated his goals years ago and has been doing this for a while. If Europe feels threatened they should step up

This is a very close replica of how Iraq was sold. Turns out that was a govt lie funded by the mic. Hard to move hardware if there's no war to fight

What he has done the last month is beyond what most anyone would have predicted.

His rhetoric is not acceptable and puts him in a position where he does need to be handled.

 

[McDad]

I will stand by the idea that a mad man waging war and threatening nukes needs to be dealt with and is at the top of a priority list. How that money is best utilized isn’t something I can determine but I am certain it is a priority worthy of expenditures.

Remember this day and this moment of resolve. When you see others support spending you deem unworthy, you will have an understanding of their feelings and how they approached their decision to support.

I do not support American involvement. I do not support sending them public money. It is Ukraine's war. It is Europe's war.

 

[apevol]

What he has done the last month is beyond what most anyone would have predicted.

His rhetoric is not acceptable and puts him in a position where he does need to be handled.

His rhetoric is very grim and imo reflects a fear of losing control. This war is disastrous for Ukraine and the Russian people both.

 

[allvol123]

Remember this day and this moment of resolve. When you see others support spending you deem unworthy, you will have an understanding of their feelings and how they approached their decision to support.

I do not support American involvement. I do not support sending them public money. It is Ukraine's war. It is Europe's war.

I have no problem remembering it or being fully confident the wasteful spending we do on illegitimate items dwarfs this.

 

[Velo Vol]

De-dollarization.

When's Russia going to end capital controls so its people can trade currency? When is it going to open its stock market?

 

[IluvdoubleD's]

His rhetoric is very grim and imo reflects a fear of losing control. This war is disastrous for Ukraine and the Russian people both.

It is, but none of it was our fault or our desire. As a world leader we must also be a leader of peace. I am very proud in the restraint we have shown. You and I both know we could step in and demolish Putin rn, but at what cost? As it stands, the worst case rn is one to three "catastrophes" bring let off, at worst case. The people of Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine are reminding us what Democracy and Humanity look like. Maybe we all needed that wake up call.

 

[McDad]

I have no problem remembering it or being fully confident the wasteful spending we do on illegitimate items dwarfs this.

There is current wasteful spending which is insignificant to this wasteful spending to Ukraine. Is the wasteful spending with is far less than the Ukraine money not wasteful (to you) because it is far fewer dollars?

 

[volgr]

There is a plan here. Smart people see it. It's a long term plan, an "after Putin" plan. Pricess will come down after this. That's why extremists have to attack now.

Ohh, I dont doubt people who think themselves smart think they also see these sanctions working. They live in a delusion. They also saw Libya working out post Gaddafi.

 

[apevol]

It is, but none of it was our fault or our desire. As a world leader we must also be a leader of peace. I am very proud in the restraint we have shown. You and I both know we could step in and demolish Putin rn, but at what cost? As it stands, the worst case rn is one to three "catastrophes" bring let off, at worst case. The people of Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine are reminding us what Democracy and Humanity look like. Maybe we all needed that wake up call.

We had our part to play in this. we're no saints.

If we were to go in with anything other than a quick, and complete defeat of the Russian military, the rest of the world will slip our grasp and there will be wars all over the globe.

 

[allvol123]

There is current wasteful spending which is insignificant to this wasteful spending to Ukraine. Is the wasteful spending with is far less than the Ukraine money not wasteful (to you) because it is far fewer dollars?

The cause would be more of the issue than the dollars. Again, containing a mad man that threatens nukes is high on my priority list. Having a department of education isn’t.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

They pretty much have Mauripol. They are continuing to close in on the Donbass. It's a slow squeeze. I guess it is relative to your expectations.

They have corrupted timeframes. Part of it is due to Russia not using heavy "shock and awe" bombing before they sent in ground troops. The other part of it is their narrative needs to be that Russia is being bogged down in a quagmire and it helps set the stage for them to run a false flag, then they can say that Putin got desperate and had a temper tantrum bio attack or chemical attack... or nuclear attack.

 

[McDad]

The cause would be more of the issue than the dollars. Again, containing a mad man that threatens nukes is high on my priority list. Having a department of education isn’t.

Same for me. The dollars are less important than the established ideal that we throw money at our problems.

I am sure you aren't surprised, I am for no public spending regardless of the issue. If people want to give as a charitable donation, of course, I support that.

 

[Grand Vol]

We had our part to play in this. we're no saints.

If we were to go in with anything other than a quick, and complete defeat of the Russian military, the rest of the world will slip our grasp and there will be wars all over the globe.

Setting up Cold War 2.0 in the process...

I'd rather not.

 

[allvol123]

Same for me. The dollars are less important than the established ideal that we throw money at our problems.

I am sure you aren't surprised, I am for no public spending regardless of the issue. If people want to give as a charitable donation, of course, I support that.

I’m not far behind you. I can get caught up in spending for defense.

 

[Rickyvol77]

They have corrupted timeframes. Part of it is due to Russia not using heavy "shock and awe" bombing before they sent in ground troops. The other part of it is their narrative needs to be that Russia is being bogged down in a quagmire and it helps set the stage for them to run a false flag, then they can say that Putin got desperate and had a temper tantrum bio attack or chemical attack... or nuclear attack.

You were pushing this conspiracy crap when you said the West was lying and Putin wasn’t going to invade too

 

[IluvdoubleD's]

We had our part to play in this. we're no saints.

If we were to go in with anything other than a quick, and complete defeat of the Russian military, the rest of the world will slip our grasp and there will be wars all over the globe.

We offered support, with the rest of the world. Everyone knows what will happen if this is allowed to continue.