War in Ukraine

[IluvdoubleD's]

Apparently, our girl is back. Either she is a deep fake, or she has a pair of brass tits.

 

[utvolpj]

I say we auction off the oligarchs assets and use the money to repay ourselves for the war effort or split it with Ukraine. They're going to needs TONS of cash to rebuild.

That might be mean. Much better to use tax dollars in Ukraine since they seem very good with money and have plenty of safeguards in place to prevent corruption

 

[allvol123]

Oh is that what the US is supposed to do now? Who else gets free stuff from us using that guideline? Maybe Europe could do something instead

Eventually all those .003 as up to real money

Yea and the list of crap we waste money on that is worse than this, is miles long.

So to bitch about spending this money, is absurd.

Son: Daddy we shouldn’t spend 800 million to help people fighting an evil tyrants that has created millions of refugees?
Dad: no son we shouldn’t, that would add 0.003% to our debt.

DAF

 

[red butler]

I see nothing in any of those headlines that would indicate Russia is progressing quickly. If anything this operation appears to be bogging down. I've not seen anything to make me believe Ukraine is winning or making advances but I've seen no real advances on much of the contested areas, a few in the south and east but the maps today look almost identical to those of two weeks ago.

Quick personal story. About 3 weeks into the invasion of Iraq, 3IDs signal company was able to set up satellite phones so we could call home. From our perspective, the war couldn't have been going any better. So I was surprised when I called my wife and she was in tears because the all the news, including input from retired generals, was dreary. She told me they were saying we had bypassed too many cities and our supply lines were too thin and the sandstorm had really bogged us down allowing the Iraqi army to reposition for a stronger defense. The truth is the optics on our tanks could see through the sandstorm so the Iraqi tanks were getting shellacked when they tried to use the storm as cover to reposition. Bottom line: never discount the media's ability to be completely wrong about everything especially when ratings/narratives are involved.

 

[volgr]

 

[KB5252]

The learned and adapted is my take.

All military endeavors adapt to some degree, but you went many steps beyond that and stated Russia is progressing quickly citing contrary intelligence reports. I'm not seeing anything that indicates things are progressing very well for Russia. If anything it's a slow plodding advance. That isn't ideal for Russia or anyone else. The advances have bogged down and some are flat out stalling. While it's certainly not good for Ukraine this is about as bad as things could go for Russia short of getting beat. They do not appear to have overwhelming superiority on the battlefield.

 

[McDad]

Yea and the list of crap we waste money on that is worse than this, is miles long.

So to bitch about spending this money, is absurd.

Son: Daddy we shouldn’t spend 800 million to help people fighting an evil tyrants that has created millions of refugees?
Dad: no son we shouldn’t, that would add 0.003% to our debt.

DAF

I disagree. Here's why. There is always a "good" reason to fund something. Those reasons are why we are in such obscene debt. Your list of "crap we waste money on" is someone else's just and noble cause deserving of said money.
The only way this cycle stops is for everyone to put their foot down. Which means, it will never stop. We are aboard a runaway train.

 

[utvolpj]

Yea and the list of crap we waste money on that is worse than this, is miles long.

So to bitch about spending this money, is absurd.

Son: Daddy we shouldn’t spend 800 million to help people fighting an evil tyrants that has created millions of refugees?
Dad: no son we shouldn’t, that would add 0.003% to our debt.

DAF

So what's a little extra debt right? It's only money taken from American citizens and sent to a corrupt country employing many children of corrupt US politicians. What could go wrong with this laundering operation?

 

[volgr]

Yeah, but we are trying to keep morale up for those gritty Ukraine fighters...

 

[KB5252]

Quick personal story. About 3 weeks into the invasion of Iraq, 3IDs signal company was able to set up satellite phones so we could call home. From our perspective, the war couldn't have been going any better. So I was surprised when I called my wife and she was in tears because the all the news, including input from retired generals, was dreary. She told me they were saying we had bypassed too many cities and our supply lines were too thin and the sandstorm had really bogged us down allowing the Iraqi army to reposition for a stronger defense. The truth is the optics on our tanks could see through the sandstorm so the Iraqi tanks were getting shellacked when they tried to use the storm as cover to reposition. Bottom line: never discount the media's ability to be completely wrong about everything especially when ratings are involved.

That's fine and a fair point, but in this instance what drastic differences are there on the battlefield? Russia does not appear to own the night or deteriorated conditions like in your example.

 

[IluvdoubleD's]

 

[allvol123]

I disagree. Here's why. There is always a "good" reason to fund something. Those reasons are why we are in such obscene debt. Your list of "crap we waste money on" is someone else's just and noble cause deserving of said money.
The only way this cycle stops is for everyone to put their foot down. Which means, it will never stop. We are aboard a runaway train.

You’ll pay more if people like Putin grab more land and resources.

You actually need to be able to prioritize what is just, noble, needed. It is required in personal finances or running a business.

This doesn’t bother me. But hopefully PJ is consistent and posts that issue in every thread where any federal dollars are spent.

 

[IluvdoubleD's]

This woman is amazing. She strait said "nope". I'm taking over and this is how we will do things.

 

[Gandalf]

The learned and adapted is my take.

That is how you get yourself into trouble with the Russia haters

I would think a more reasonable assessment just based on those three takes would be the Russians "have adapted from early tactics that resulted in massive and crippling unforced errors and are now progressing forward slowly but surely against fierce resistance".

This conflict is beginning to look a lot like how the Russians went about taking Chechnya, in that first they went in to "liberate" and then when they were not welcomed, they deployed a brutal but thorough subjugation campaign. Not sure that strategy is going to work today in Ukraine, with pop size, large borders with the EU and social media being significant differentiating factors.

 

[allvol123]

So what's a little extra debt right? It's only money taken from American citizens and sent to a corrupt country employing many children of corrupt US politicians. What could go wrong with this laundering operation?

Perhaps some goes right and it helps prevent Putin from expanding his footprint. Or we like a guy that threatens nukes to expand?

 

[apevol]

I think there is a bit of truth in what you say about wanting to integrate Ukraine into the Russian sphere (along with tying into to the Eurasian Trade Zone and Chinese Belt and Road Initiative). I think the economic tie was going to be a way to help maintain the security issues around Ukraine. Where I will disagree with you is with regards to Putin’s handling of their domestic economy. The threat of sanctions Chas been out there since 2014, and Putin did not want to be vulnerable to Western sanctions and crumble like Iran. So they immediately began to become more self-sufficient and increase a lot of domestic farming and manufacturing. Also, stiffening ties with China also served as a backup plan if the West did move to economic warfare. Russia is in a far better position right now than frankly the US. The US hasn’t even figured out how to overcome the toilet paper issues from 2020, so there is no way we are going to fair well if Russia and now China decide to implement counter-sanctions. Russian energy and Chinese manufacturing over a long haul will hurt us far more than them. That is why it was a ridiculous and provocative move by Biden to go that far with both Russia and China.

Ive been talking to Russians and things aren't alright. They're scared and defensive about being blamed and they have every right to be. Other than a bunch of arrogant europeans harassing americans on occasion, we never really faced much backlash for our military adventurism. But they're telling me there are already some food shortages and that they will suffer while the oligarchs stay fat. The younger russians feel completely friendless between their government and the rest of the world.

 

[utvolpj]

Perhaps some goes right and it helps prevent Putin from expanding his footprint. Or we like a guy that threatens nukes to expand?

If only there was a whole continent full of modern militaries closer to that fight than the US. If only...

 

[allvol123]

If only there was a whole continent closer to that fight than the US. If only...

True. It is 2022 BC correct?

 

[red butler]

That's fine and a fair point, but in this instance what drastic differences are there on the battlefield? Russia does not appear to own the night or deteriorated conditions like in your example.

I don't know what the Russian objectives are, or their timetable, or their risk estimates. It appears they've taken more losses than they expected and Ukraine has provided more resistance than they thought. But Russia may be content with seizing a coastal land corridor and starving the rest of the cities out for more leverage in negotiations.

 

[Hunerwadel]

LOL. This art precedes neocons by centuries, millennia actually.

 

[volgr]

I would think a more reasonable assessment just based on those three takes would be the Russians "have adapted from early tactics that resulted in massive and crippling unforced errors and are now progressing forward slowly but surely against fierce resistance".

I think even that take gives Ukraine far too much credit but it is a much more accurate picture than what most Americans are hearing.

 

[utvolpj]

You’ll pay more if people like Putin grab more land and resources.

You actually need to be able to prioritize what is just, noble, needed. It is required in personal finances or running a business.

This doesn’t bother me. But hopefully PJ is consistent and posts that issue in every thread where any federal dollars are spent.

Iraq was sold as just and noble but only cost a couple trillion dollars and hundreds of thousands of lives. I think there were wmd threats as well

My stance on wasteful govt spending is consistent and documented. More than I can say for most others on here

 

[allvol123]

Iraq was sold as just and noble but only cost a couple trillion dollars and hundreds of thousands of lives. I think there were wmd threats as well

My stance on wasteful govt spending is consistent and documented. More than I can say for most others on here

Putin is making moves we haven’t seen in our lives. It isn’t hearsay or intelligence, it is him directly. We are talking money here, so no reason to drag in a “lives” argument.

You are consistent on your fiscal stance and I generally am in your boat. But I doubt you make that post in every thread. I would give high priority to the issue of a mad man in control of a nuclear arsenal. So this money is not a concern to me.

 

[KB5252]

I don't know what the Russian objectives are, or their timetable, or their risk estimates. It appears they've taken more losses than they expected and Ukraine has provided more resistance than they thought. But Russia may be content with seizing a coastal land corridor and starving the rest of the cities out for more leverage in negotiations.

That's really risky IMO. That can take time and as long as corridors can be opened to Kyiv it can survive.

 

[IluvdoubleD's]