War in Ukraine

#20,827
#20,827
red butler said:
You're saying the Confederate states didn't vote to secede?
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Yes they did, and became and independent nation. Not part of another one. My statement Ras was referring to was " if a country invades another and loses perhaps they deserve to have some of their land carved out to the invaded" I'm paraphrasing though.

Ras made the false equivalency that if that would happen in Ukraine it would be justified. Where his example breaks down is Ukraine did not invade Russia.
 
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#20,828
#20,828
KB5252 said:
Traditional American values have changed drastically over time. Please point out at which point in our tradition you wish to pivot back to.
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Right before women could vote. We really went downhill after that.

<for the autists out there, I'm partially joking>
 
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#20,830
#20,830
Rasputin_Vol said:
Yep, just like the Confederate States were part of the US. What happened when they decided to leave?
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Enough of grasping analogies.

The articles of secession were delivered by the elected legislatures of those states. The 2014 independence declaration of LPR (Luhansk Peoples Republic) and DPR (Donetsk Peoples Republic) was issued following a 'referendum' conducted by the armed separatists that controlled portions of the oblasts. The referendum conformed to no legal construct and no countries recognized the referendums or declarations; even Russia did not recognize them.

In fact, it wasn't until
January 19,2022 the Communist Party of the Russian Federation (CPRFR)Duma faction submitted an appeal to Vladimir Putin to extend diplomatic recognition to the breakaway Luhansk People's Republic [LPR] and the Donetsk People's Republic [DPR]. The Communist proposal was promptly endorsed by Vladimir Zhirinovsky's "Liberal Democrats: and Fair Russia the two largest factions of the systemic "opposition" in the Duma.
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 that the idea took hold in Putin's Kremlin.
Russian Recognition Of The LPR And DPR – A Potential Off Ramp For Russia From The Ukraine Crisis?

Perhaps Putin is a communist/globalist/Zionist/homo-loving tool in caped-crusader drag...

The Donbas people - even those in separatist held regions for years - don't say what you attempt to project upon them:
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More than five years after the beginning of the war in eastern Ukraine, most residents of the country’s Donbas region still see themselves as part of Ukraine, according to a recent survey carried out by the Berlin-based Center for East European and International Studies (ZOiS).

According to the research, 64.7 per cent of respondents from the government-controlled parts of Donbas want the region to be fully reintegrated into Ukraine with no special status, a decrease of a mere one per cent compared to a similar ZOiS survey carried out in 2016. Among the residents of the self-proclaimed ‘People’s Republics’ of Donetsk (DNR) and Luhansk (LNR), 31 per cent would prefer autonomous status within Ukraine, while 23.5 per cent would support full reintegration.

However, the number of those supporting the region’s absorption by Russia without any special conditions has grown by seven per cent to 18.3 per cent.

“In both the 2016 and 2019 surveys, about 55 per cent of the DNR/LNR population expressed their preference for belonging to the Ukrainian state. This is an important corrective to Russia’s official rhetoric and public perceptions in the West,” said Gwendolyn Sasse and Alice Lickner, the authors of the report.

At the same time, the number of those identifying themselves as Ukrainian in the separatist-controlled regions has dropped significantly from 53 to 26 per cent over the last three years. “This significant weakening of identification with the Ukrainian state captures the disappointment of those living close to the front line and a sense of having been left behind by the central government,” the ZOiS research found.

However, the research also claimed that the share of residents considering themselves ethnic Ukrainian, mixed ethnic Ukrainian and Russian, as well as people from Donbas, had also grown significantly.
Ukraine Poll: Majority Want Donbas to Remain in Ukraine
Most people in separatist-held areas of Donbas prefer reintegration with Ukraine – new survey
Survey: Majority of Donbas residents want to be part of Ukraine - Emerging Europe
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....despite upwards of 1.8 million Ukrainians fleeing the embattled region, almost exclusively to the western Donbas region or closer to Kyiv, NOT RUSSIA.

So, even with large numbers of Ukrainians not participating in a illegitimate referendum controlled by Russian separatists and declaring independence - both actions recognized by no one including Russia - and loss of nearly two million UKRAINIANs, even the separatist and Russian military controlled regions of Donbas want to remain UKRAINIAN. To be part of the 'Western puppet regime' Ukraine.

"Holy crap-analogies, Batman!" - it's nothing like the Confederate secession.
Your argument is sham and projection of your fantasy that Putin is a defender of conservative and religious values against Western globalist, homo lovers.

(Hat-tip to @volgr for the homo tie-in.)
 
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#20,833
#20,833
KB5252 said:
Yes they did, and became and independent nation. Not part of another one. My statement Ras was referring to was " if a country invades another and loses perhaps they deserve to have some of their land carved out to the invaded" I'm paraphrasing though.

Ras made the false equivalency that if that would happen in Ukraine it would be justified. Where his example breaks down is Ukraine did not invade Russia.
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I thought he was saying when the Donbas tried to secede the Ukraine invaded it, just like the North invaded the South.
 
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#20,837
#20,837
Best quote is from the Mayor "I don’t understand where this nonsense came from," he [Mayor Tokar] said of reports his town had been liberated. "It is not true. We have shelling and we have Russian tanks shooting into the town right now."
 
#20,838
#20,838
red butler said:
I thought he was saying when the Donbas tried to secede the Ukraine invaded it, just like the North invaded the South.
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He was but he was also referring to my original statement about it an invader loses the country invading can carve some land out.
 
#20,840
#20,840
volgr said:
Lots of moving parts and pieces...just waing for Biden's, "Come'on man you're either with us or against us".
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No one here is accusing Biden of being especially sharp. I think the US just sped up the decline of the dollar.

I get your anti- globalist stance. I used to feel the same way, until it occurred to me that it could be so much worse. We could have China, and Russia dictating things. If you want a preview of what that would look like just refer to history..... Not good.
 
#20,843
#20,843
KB5252 said:
No one here is accusing Biden of being especially sharp. I think the US just sped up the decline of the dollar.

I get your anti- globalist stance. I used to feel the same way, until it occurred to me that it could be so much worse. We could have China, and Russia dictating things. If you want a preview of what that would look like just refer to history..... Not good.
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I'm not worried about China and Russia dictating things.
 
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#20,847
#20,847
midnight orange said:
Raz, I keep hearing the quote that politics is downstream of culture and it sounds good but I’m not sure that I buy it. I think a lot of our culture has been manufactured and delivered top down through media and politicians.
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midnight orange said:
I think the issue is that conservative constituents have no understanding of power. The goal of power ( besides power itself) is to mold society and create or destroy the institutions to further that molding of culture, something that neo-liberal, progressives have excelled at. Conservative leaders have not only refused to destroy these institutions that work against their constituents but have buttressed them and created more of them ex.(Reagan promised to destroy the Department of Education, Bush-Homeland Security, Nixon-EPA)
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I guess I'm confused. How is what you're saying here different than politics being downstream of culture? I think what you are saying perfectly summarizes the problem and how the culture advances political sentiment. Conservatives too often believed that simply having the best arguments or winning debates would advance their political agenda, meanwhile, they would be so tone deaf with regards to Hollywood, music and sports. They would focus on a narrow demographic to have as an echo chamber rather than look to advancing some of their core values beyond just the stereotypical country/western crowd or Rockefeller/big business demographic. Trump was the only one in my lifetime to understand culture, but I think he went a tad bit too far by bringing in some of the LGBTQ folks.
 
#20,849
#20,849
volgr said:
Then why didn't you say that? Your comment was about them being a regional power. I don't think Russia, or at least their citizens, have any care to be a world superpower.
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Putin certainly does. Younger people care less and that’s more and more are looking West. This trend will only continue.
 
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#20,850
#20,850
volgr said:
Trump is one of few in the GOP who support a sane foreign policy. Unfortunately, doing all of the above will matter little so far as foreign policy is concerned. Kevin McCarthy wouldn't deviate from Biden in his handling of Russia/Ukraine and he actually may make it worse.
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Oh, I agree. What I've seen over the last month has really concerned me. Now I think we went from a rather non-interventionist appetite in the electorate selecting Trump in 2016 to now a more warhawk appetite that could give us Nikki Haley or Pompeo in 2024.
 
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