War in Ukraine

[MontyPython]

Japan wasn't pushed into a corner. They at any time could have halted their empirical expansion.

Why did FDR push Japan to attack the United States?

• FDR had been charged in public with agitating for war since 1939. FDR had to push the Japanese into attacking the United States because the overwhelming majority of Americans opposed getting involved in the war and Japan itself had no intentions of attacking the United States, their interest was Asia.

FDR provoked the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor

 

[hog88]

Would you agree that NATO could do the exact same thing and stop their expansion into Ukraine and other former Soviet states?

They could. But then I also believe sovereign states should be allowed to choose their own alliances.

 

[hog88]

Why did FDR push Japan to attack the United States?

• FDR had been charged in public with agitating for war since 1939. FDR had to push the Japanese into attacking the United States because the overwhelming majority of Americans opposed getting involved in the war and Japan itself had no intentions of attacking the United States, their interest was Asia.

FDR provoked the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor

Yes, FDR wanted to get into the war. There is no question about that but Japan was not forced to attack PH.

 

[allvol123]

Would you agree that NATO could do the exact same thing and stop their expansion into Ukraine and other former Soviet states?

Are you a bot? Did a person seriously type this?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

They could. But then I also believe sovereign states should be allowed to choose their own alliances.

OMG... its like we are going into a loop. Everything circles back to 2013. When Yanukovich was in charge and appeared to be turning away from The EU and NATO, all of that "sovereign states" nonsense went out the window when the US State Department cooked up a coup in late 2013. So as long as these countries playball with us, we think countries have the right to self-determination. But if they go against us, see Ukraine and Syria.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Are you a bot? Did a person seriously type this?

Are you going to answer the question?

If the reasoning is that Japan could have stopped heir expansionists objectives and ended the embargo, then it is just as reasonable to ask that NATO could end all of this in Ukraine if they stopped their expansionist objectives.

 

[MontyPython]

Yes, FDR wanted to get into the war. There is no question about that but Japan was not forced to attack PH.

As a practical matter, this isn't true. You can argue about the target and objective that Japan was going to attack, but they absolutely were forced into war.

On November 26, 1941 Secretary of State Hull presented "peace terms" to the Japanese. The terms presented by Hull were such that in order for Japan to agree to them they would have had to withdraw from China, and essentially end all hostilities, something that the administration knew was not going to happen.

FDR forced the Japanese into a corner. His hope and intent was 100% that they would attack us.

He was right.

 

[hog88]

OMG... its like we are going into a loop. Everything circles back to 2013. When Yanukovich was in charge and appeared to be turning away from The EU and NATO, all of that "sovereign states" nonsense went out the window when the US State Department cooked up a coup in late 2013. So as long as these countries playball with us, we think countries have the right to self-determination. But if they go against us, see Ukraine and Syria.

If Ukraine and it's citizens or any other European country wants to join NATO and qualifies they shouldn't be barred from doing so by some US/Russian agreement. I'd like to see most all of Europe band together in a military alliance and leave us out of it.

 

[allvol123]

Are you going to answer the question?

If the reasoning is that Japan could have stopped heir expansionists objectives and ended the embargo, then it is just as reasonable to ask that NATO could end all of this in Ukraine if they stopped their expansionist objectives.

Expansion via war and expansion via agreement amongst willing countries is 2 totally different things. You are a troll on these matters.

 

[hog88]

As a practical matter, this isn't true.

On November 26, 1941 Secretary of State Hull presented "peace terms" to the Japanese. The terms presented by Hull were such that in order for Japan to agree to them they would have had to withdraw from China, and essentially end all hostilities, something that the administration knew was not going to happen.

FDR forced the Japanese into a corner. His hope and intent was 100% that they would attack us.

He was right.

So you admit that Japan had other options than attacking PH?

Was FDR desirous of a clear cut action that would draw us into the war? 100% he was but Japan still had options.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Yes, FDR wanted to get into the war. There is no question about that but Japan was not forced to attack PH.

That is like saying a medical professional is not forced to take the jab.

 

[hog88]

That is like saying a medical professional is not forced to take the jab.

Not even close to comparable.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

If Ukraine and it's citizens or any other European country wants to join NATO and qualifies they shouldn't be barred from doing so by some US/Russian agreement. I'd like to see most all of Europe band together in a military alliance and leave us out of it.

Really? That was the sole purpose of the agreement to avoid any conflict.

 

[hog88]

Really? That was the sole purpose of the agreement to avoid any conflict.

There was never an agreement. If there were it would have been written down.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Not even close to comparable.

OK

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

There was never an agreement. If there were it would have been written down.

So our word means nothing.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

So you admit that Japan had other options than attacking PH?

Was FDR desirous of a clear cut action that would draw us into the war? 100% he was but Japan still had options.

Just like NATO has options right now.

 

[hog88]

So our word means nothing.

We never gave our word and no, it's not worth anything in any case because no governemts word is worth anything.

 

[hog88]

Just like NATO has options right now.

Correct, NATO does not have to get involved militarily.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

We never gave our word and no, it's not worth anything in any case because no governemts word is worth anything.

Yes, we did. This isn't just coming from the Russian side of things. There are others in Europe that know James Baker made this clear during the German reunification negotiations. Hell, even the Germans are fully aware of this.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Correct, NATO does not have to get involved militarily.

Or extend NATO membership to these former Soviet states. Or send arms to these former Soviet states.

 

[allvol123]

Or extend NATO membership to these former Soviet states. Or send arms to these former Soviet states.

Why do you refer to a country in such terms?

It’s as if your bias consumes you.

 

[MontyPython]

So you admit that Japan had other options than attacking PH?

Was FDR desirous of a clear cut action that would draw us into the war? 100% he was but Japan still had options.

The analogous situation today is if the US/NATO doesn't prevent offensive missile weapons systems from being placed in NATO-wannabe Ukraine or other countries bordering Russia, Russia will have no option but to defend itself.

Where exactly Russia attacks in Ukraine and how, who knows. But the point is such action will invariably illicit an attack from Russia.

 

[hog88]

Yes, we did. This isn't just coming from the Russian side of things. There are others in Europe that know James Baker made this clear during the German reunification negotiations. Hell, even the Germans are fully aware of this.

Should have written it down somewhere.

 

[hog88]

Or extend NATO membership to these former Soviet states. Or send arms to these former Soviet states.

Why not? The Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore.