What is fundamental Islam??

[lawgator1]

gsvol, I challenge your statement made earlier that "Wall Street" gave Obama $35 million, seven times what it gave McCain.

I'd like some proof of that, please. A link would be good so we can assess the claim.

 

[Dustin4Vols]

dang. islam is a religion now? i always thoguht it was a suicidal,kill everyone that isnt islam book club.

 

[Headed For Home]

dang. islam is a religion now? i always thoguht it was a suicidal,kill everyone that isnt islam book club.

Turns out you were close!

 

[therealUT]

i think he was refering to my statement of islam being a plague. because a religion the condones decapitation is ok right?

I am pretty sure that if you look at the history of the protestant reformation, you will see many people decapitated in the name of both Catholicism and the various protesting Christian sects.

 

[hatvol96]

But there is a huge drop off of radicalism in the areas where life is good for Muslims.

Dubai, anyone?

 

[therealUT]

One of the biggest factors IMO is that Islam (fundamentalist Islam in particular) rejects the western culture and influences that have been implanted throughout much of the western world.

fyp

Why is it always that Islam rejects the West? Is it not true that the West rejects the East, the Middle East, Africa, and South America?

As for GSVol's picture...

Yes, one can historically link the Nazi's and Arab Nationalism. Arab Nationalists have exploited Islam plenty. However, your picture is absolute ridiculous, proves nothing, and actually perpetuates ignorance. You might as well call out the Hindus (since, they use swastikas) and Catholics (since we routinely raise our hands like that during certain religious rites).

The picture certainly looks damning and Hamas and Hezbollah certainly want to exterminate Judaism. Yet, there are more educated and informative ways get your point across, GSVol (except that your point is most ignorant ).

I was browsing through google images and I apologize for not being able to find an entire congregation doing the same. However, it happens quite frequently.

 

[MontereyVol]

I saw this when I was around 19 or 20 years old.

 

[KB5252]

sound familiar?

I think I know where you are going but to be sure I need you to expand on your statement.

 

[MontereyVol]

I think I know where you are going but to be sure I need you to expand on your statement.

TRUT pretty summed it up in post #54, although a little myopic for my taste. All religions are guilty of making mistakes that cost lives and later look like an idiot(s) was in charge. Islam is just the religion of the day right now.

 

[Headed For Home]

TRUT pretty summed it up in post #54, although a little myopic for my taste. All religions are guilty of making mistakes that cost lives and later look like an idiot(s) was in charge. Islam is just the religion of the day right now.

Since we are talking about the world of TODAY, I would think we could all agree that militant Islam is the single largest threat to our safety.

 

[KB5252]

TRUT pretty summed it up in post #54, although a little myopic for my taste. All religions are guilty of making mistakes that cost lives and later look like an idiot(s) was in charge. Islam is just the religion of the day right now.

I agree here, that being said Islam is growing rapidly and is a real threat to the liberties and rights we know in most western cultures. In Western culture there is the rule of law. In Islamic culture the rule of law is the rule by Islam which is the law and everything else takes a back seat including true justice. It would be a huge setback for mankind. All the advances we have made will be for naught.

 

[joevol320]

gsvol, I challenge your statement made earlier that "Wall Street" gave Obama $35 million, seven times what it gave McCain.

I'd like some proof of that, please. A link would be good so we can assess the claim.

i read that article too. it was talking about why wall street would give so much money to hussein o. even though he has been publicly campaigning about more regulation and higher taxes against wallstreet. the amounts were suprising. i can't remember the exact amounts but it was very high.

 

[GVF]

I look at it this way. Trying to reason with a culture born and taught to hate and kill others that are not the same. Islam/White Supremacy/CIA...? Understand one, understand them all.

 

[gsvol]

I agree here, that being said,

Islam is growing rapidly and is a real threat to the liberties and rights we know in most western cultures. In Western culture there is the rule of law. In Islamic culture the rule of law is the rule by Islam which is the law and everything else takes a back seat including true justice. It would be a huge setback for mankind. All the advances we have made will be for naught.

Wow, how could anyone express it better than that?????

I hereby nominate you for a pulitzer prize, oh wait, they just give that to liars like Duranty don't they, OK, I retract my insulting insinuation. :blush:

i read that article too. it was talking about why wall street would give so much money to hussein o. even though he has been publicly campaigning about more regulation and higher taxes against wallstreet. the amounts were suprising. i can't remember the exact amounts but it was very high.

What we should be asking is how much campaign money did Obama get from illegal foreign Islamic contributions???

Tip of an iceberg??

Where is global warming when you really need it??

L A Times.

Rezko has been convicted on federal corruption charges.

"Witnesses will testify that Rezko was a long-standing supporter and fund-raiser of Barack Obama," one prosecutor wrote in their planning notes. But for unexplained reasons, they ended up not calling those witnesses.

The Obama - Rezko connection goes back at least 17 years.

The Facts


According to Stuart Levine, a former Rezko associate turned prosecution witness, both Barack Obama and his wife Michelle were among the guests at a April 3, 2004 party at Rezko's Chicago home for Nahdmi Auchi.

(everyone be sure to read the link on Nahdmi Auchi.)

At that time, Rezko was trying to impress Auchi with his political connections. The Iraqi/British billionaire would later buy part of Rezko's pizzeria business and invest $170 million in a prime piece of Chicago real estate that Rezko wanted to develop.

While acknowledging his friendship with Rezko, Obama has minimized their social dealings. Interviewed last month by the Chicago Tribune, he said that he and Rezko met for breakfast or lunch infrequently. He said that he attended a fundraising event at Rezko's home in Wilmette in 2003, but made no mention of the April 2004 party for Auchi.

After Monday's court hearing, a spokesman for Obama said that he had "no recollection" of the April 2004 event at Rezko's Wilmette home. Obama recently acknowledged stopping by the Four Seasons Hotel in Chicago on another occasion when Rezko was hosting a small private dinner for two Qatar bankers in February 2004. At the time, Obama was in the middle of his U.S. Senate race.

A lawyer for Auchi, Alasdair Pepper, said by phone from London that his client also had "no recollection" of any meeting with either Obama or his wife.

A wealth of information about obama and friends.



That being said, maybe you can research and start a new thread on Obama and his muslim campaign money?

 

[duckman398686]

i think he was refering to my statement of islam being a plague. because a religion the condones decapitation is ok right?

oh please. i'm not an expert on islam by any means, but i'm pretty confident in saying that islam doesn't "condone" suicide missions and decapitations. the people that do that kind of stuff are extremists who have a messed up interpretation of the religion. they are the real problem.

 

[SavageOrangeJug]

oh please. i'm not an expert on islam by any means, but i'm pretty confident in saying that islam doesn't "condone" suicide missions and decapitations. the people that do that kind of stuff are extremists who have a messed up interpretation of the religion. they are the real problem.

You certainly don't hear them expressing outrage over those acts either.

When is the last time you heard an Imam or Ayatollah publicly condemning these practices.

 

[Brog]

Do all the pastors and preachers in the world publicly condemn bombings of abortion clinics when they happen or are we to understand that it's common sense that they do?

 

[SavageOrangeJug]

Do all the pastors and preachers in the world publicly condemn bombings of abortion clinics when they happen or are we to understand that it's common sense that they do?

All? No.

Most? Yes.

 

[KB5252]

Do all the pastors and preachers in the world publicly condemn bombings of abortion clinics when they happen or are we to understand that it's common sense that they do?

I agree that there is a certain sect of Islam that is using the Koran to justify their killing of innocent men and women. The problem I have is that this has been a growing problem over the last 15 to 20 years and Muslims have let this happen while they sit idle.

When was the last time you heard a prominent Imam speak out against those that corrupt the religion and kill needlessly in the name of Allah? You hear very few if any at all. And why? Because some actually agree with this action and the rest are too scared to stand up and say something because they know they will be labeled as a traitor to Islam and will be the next to be killed.

 

[rjd970]

KB has good points here. A good article that sums up nicely the way I feel about can be found here (ignore that it is huffingtonpost, this is actually a good article):

Sam Harris: Losing Our Spines to Save Our Necks

Here it is summarized:

There is an uncanny irony here that many have noticed. The position of the Muslim community in the face of all provocations seems to be: Islam is a religion of peace, and if you say that it isn't, we will kill you. Of course, the truth is often more nuanced, but this is about as nuanced as it ever gets: Islam is a religion of peace, and if you say that it isn't, we peaceful Muslims cannot be held responsible for what our less peaceful brothers and sisters do. When they burn your embassies or kidnap and slaughter your journalists, know that we will hold you primarily responsible and will spend the bulk of our energies criticizing you for "racism" and "Islamophobia."

 

[KB5252]

KB has good points here. A good article that sums up nicely the way I feel about can be found here (ignore that it is huffingtonpost, this is actually a good article):

Sam Harris: Losing Our Spines to Save Our Necks

Here it is summarized:

Even though it is the HP, it seems like a valid statement to me. Even though it is just a sect of Islam that is doing the killing all Muslims are in varying degrees responsible for it because they allow these people to live among them and do not speak against their acts, in many cases they become their apologists.

 

[rjd970]

Even though it is the HP, it seems like a valid statement to me. Even though it is just a sect of Islam that is doing the killing all Muslims are in varying degrees responsible for it because they allow these people to live among them and do not speak against their acts, in many cases they become their apologists.

Exactly. Anybody that doesn't believe this is a fundamental problem with Islam is delusional.

 

[gsvol]

oh please. i'm not an expert on islam by any means, but i'm pretty confident in saying that islam doesn't "condone" suicide missions and decapitations. the people that do that kind of stuff are extremists who have a messed up interpretation of the religion. they are the real problem.

The point is that there may be moderate muslims but no moderate islam.

The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh, issued a statement on the official Saudi news service, defending Muslims’ divine right to resort to violence: “The spread of Islam has gone through several phases, secret and then public, in Mecca and Medina. God then authorized the faithful to defend themselves and to fight against those fighting them, which amounts to a right legitimized by God. This… is quite reasonable, and God will not hate it.”

Saudi Arabia’s most senior cleric also explained that war was never Islam’s ancient founder, the prophet Mohammed’s, first choice: “He gave three options: either accept Islam, or surrender and pay tax, and they will be allowed to remain in their land, observing their religion under the protection of Muslims.” Thus, according to the Grand Mufti, the third option (the sword) was only a last resort, if the non-Muslims refused to convert or surrender peacefully to the armies of Islam.

The Koran has 114 chapters and six thousand verses.

One hundred and ten of those verses call for violence against any and all non-muslims who do not submit to islam.

The Koran is not the only source book of Islam, the so-called Hadis1 collections share that role equally. In Arabic the plural of hadîs is ahãdîs; these describe what the Prophet did or what he said. As a Muslim would put it, these narrate the Prophet's Sunnah (practice of the Prophet). In one sense, the importance of the Hadis literature in the life of a Muslim is even greater than that of the Koran. A Koranic text might admit of different meanings. Certainly different commentators could suggest different meanings of the same Koranic verse. But the relevant hadîs, in explaining its meaning as exemplified in the Prophet's practice, renders the meaning unique for all time to come.

Besides the Hadis, another source book for the Sunnah are the so-called siyar (plural of sîrah) or the biographies of the Prophet. These do not belong to the body of Islam's canonical literature but in so far as the events described in them are considered genuine by the ulema or the collectors of the Hadis, these bring out the meaning of Koranic verses even more clearly than the Hadis. Thus the genuine biographies of the Prophet are important source books for Sunnah.

The extent of violence and bloodshed permitted in jihãd is also clearly stated in the Koran. The 5th verse of Sûrah Taubah makes no bones about the matter. Allah says in so many words:

When the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them, besiege them and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free.

To sum up, the following are the rules and instructions regarding jihãd as laid down in the Koran:

(a) The ultimate object of jihãd is to Islamize the whole of humanity. Since the Prophet's sojourn in Medina, this duty has been permanently enjoined on Muslims over the length and breadth of the world.

(b) The immediate objects of jihãd are four in number: (1) spread of Islam by war; (2) the destruction of infidels; (3) jizyah; and (4) plunder.

(c) For Scriptuaries the imposition of jizyah is the rule, just as for idolaters the rule is mass-slaughter. But there are many exceptions to this general rule. Mass-slaughter of Jews in jihãd is eminently permissible, as the subsequent chapters will show. On the other hand, even idolaters can be let off on payment of the poll-tax. The Koran has not published any rigorous rule regarding these matters.

(d) Jihãd is by no means a war for self-defence. Historically the verse kill the idolaters wherever you find them (K 9/5) forms an item in the immunity granted to the Prophet in 631 AD regarding his obligations to the idolaters of Arabia. But as in every verse of the Koran, the implication of such immunity in respect of a particular set of infidels embraced in due course idolaters of any and every country of the world. Such an injunction is necessarily informed with the spirit of extreme aggressiveness.

In conclusion it is only necessary to add that according to the Koran, the duty of jihãd for any and every Muslim of the world preponderates over all other Islamic duties. This is brought out most clearly in verses 9/19-22, but these are by no means the only verses with a similar import.

 

[gsvol]

I agree that there is a certain sect of Islam that is using the Koran to justify their killing of innocent men and women. The problem I have is that this has been a growing problem over the last 15 to 20 years and Muslims have let this happen while they sit idle.

Let me differ slightly, this has been a growing problem since WW II and not just the past 15 or 20 years. Perhaps more people have noticed over the last 15 or 20 years because terror events have become increasingly spectacular.

The Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) was founded in America in 1963. It calls itself the largest Muslim organization on the continent. Its annual convention draws more attendees — usually over 30,000 — than any other Muslim gathering in the Western Hemisphere. (As of 2006)

ISNA devotes much of its energy to providing Wahhabi theological indoctrination materials to some 1,100 of the approximately 2,500 mosques in North America.

Many of these mosques were recently built with Saudi money and are required, by their Saudi benefactors, to strictly follow the dictates of Wahhabi imams – an edict that affects the tone and content of the sermons given in the mosques, the selection of books and periodicals that may be read in mosque libraries or sold in mosque bookshops, and the policies governing the exclusion or suppression of dissenters from the congregations.

Through its affiliate, the North American Islamic Trust – a Saudi government-backed organization created to fund Islamist enterprises in North America – the Saudi-subsidized ISNA reportedly holds the mortgages of between 50 and 79 percent of all mosques in the U.S. and Canada. Thus the organization can exercise ultimate authority over the mosques and their teachings.

Islam scholar Stephen Schwartz describes ISNA as “one of the chief conduits through which the radical Saudi form of Islam passes into the United States.”

According to terrorism expert Steven Emerson, ISNA “is a radical group hiding under a false veneer of moderation”; “convenes annual conferences where Islamist militants have been given a platform to incite violence and promote hatred” (For instance, al Qaeda supporter and PLO official Yusuf Al-Qaradhawi was invited to speak at an ISNA conference); has held fundraisers for terrorists, and publishes a bi-monthly magazine, Islamic Horizons, that “often champions militant Islamist doctrine.”

Adds Emerson: “I think ISNA has been an umbrella, also a promoter of groups that have been involved in terrorism. I am not going to accuse the ISNA of being directly involved in terrorism. I will say ISNA has sponsored extremists, racists, people who call for Jihad against the United States.”

ISNA was a signatory to a February 20, 2002 document, composed by C. Clark Kissinger’s revolutionary communist group Refuse & Resist, condemning military tribunals and the detention of immigrants apprehended in connection with post-9/11 terrorism investigations.

"Saudi Publications on Hate Ideology Fill American Mosques,"

Says Freedom House, one of the oldest human rights groups in the U.S. and headed by James Woolsey, CIA director in the first Clinton administration. The organization did a one-year study of the kind of "hate propaganda" the Saudi government has paid to print and distribute to U.S. mosques.

The 89-page report, based on 200 Saudi documents, released by Freedom House in Jan., 2006, was titled "Saudi Publications on Hate Ideology Fill American Mosques."


The propagation of hate ideology by Saudi Arabia is known to be worldwide, but its occurrence within the United States has received scant attention.

The report concludes that the Saudi government propaganda examined reflects a "totalitarian ideology of hatred that can incite to violence," and the fact that it is "being mainstreamed within our borders through the efforts of a foreign government, namely Saudi Arabia, demands our urgent attention."

The report finds: "Not only does the government of Saudi Arabia not have a right – under the First Amendment or any other legal document – to spread hate ideology within U.S. borders, it is committing a human rights violation by doing so."

Among the key findings of the report:

• Various Saudi government publications gathered for this study, most of which are in Arabic, assert that it is a religious obligation for Muslims to hate Christians and Jews and warn against imitating, befriending, or helping them in any way, or taking part in their festivities and celebrations;

• The documents promote contempt for the United States because it is ruled by legislated civil law rather than by totalitarian Wahhabi-style Islamic law. They condemn democracy as un-Islamic; (I'll bet that didn't stop them from voting for Obama)

• The documents stress that when Muslims are in the lands of the unbelievers, they must behave as if on a mission behind enemy lines. Either they are there to acquire new knowledge and make money to be later employed in the jihad against the infidels, or they are there to proselytize the infidels until at least some convert to Islam. Any other reason for lingering among the unbelievers in their lands is illegitimate, and unless a Muslim leaves as quickly as possible, he or she is not a true Muslim and so too must be condemned.

• One insidious aspect of the Saudi propaganda examined is its aim to replace traditional and moderate interpretations of Islam with extremist Wahhabism, the officially-established religion of Saudi Arabia. In these documents, other Muslims, especially those who advocate tolerance, are condemned as infidels......... Since, under Saudi law, "apostates" from Islam can be sentenced to death, this is an implied death threat against the tolerant Muslim imam, as well as an incitement to vigilante violence;

• For a Muslim who fails to uphold the Saudi Wahhabi sect's sexual mores (i.e. through homosexual activity or heterosexual activity outside of marriage), the edicts published by the Saudi government's Ministry of Islamic Affairs, and found in American mosques advise, "it would be lawful for Muslims to spill his blood and to take his money;"

• Regarding those who convert out of Islam, the Saudi Ministry of Islamic Affairs explicitly asserts, they "should be killed;"

• Saudi textbooks and other publications in the collection, propagate a Nazi-like hatred for Jews, treat the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion as historical fact, and avow that the Muslim's duty is to eliminate the state of Israel;

 

[Headed For Home]

Do all the pastors and preachers in the world publicly condemn bombings of abortion clinics when they happen or are we to understand that it's common sense that they do?

That is an absurd statement and you know it. There is no legit comparison between the two scenarios.