What I've been thinking on Jones resume

#26
#26
I agree with the talent but he is the one who keeps on convincing them to come play for him. He is a proven commodity for putting players in the NFL.

Oh, no doubt. And that's pretty much what I am saying. I'd say he probably doesn't have to put as much effort into coaching as he did in the first couple years at Bammer. He has an all star staff, and all star players, both of which know what's expected of them. They police themselves.

It's like a pyramid scheme. Now he just sits back and rakes in the cash/wins.
 
#27
#27
But if his system is simple and easy to execute, and he teaches it well, while not completely blowing clock management and play calls during games, is that not good coaching? Serious question. I fail to see anything wrong with it.

I've actually thought about this before as it relates to his system, recruiting, and coaching. You are correct that he has lost football games. Auburn 2010 and Texas A&M 2012 come to mind. But in those games, Saban's system was beaten not by another system, but by a truly special player, one who has enough skill and talent to completely disrupt any gameplan. In his instance, these were both later recognized as the best in college football. These players, of course, are Cam Newton and Johnny Manziel. There's no amount of coaching or scheming that can really account for either of them. It's the nature of their game.

To use a really weird reference, but one that I hope someone on this board will understand, Newton and Manziel are the Mule to Nick Saban's Seldon's Plan. They can't be accounted or planned for and they will disrupt any scheme designed to contain them. The fact that they both happened to play in spread offenses isn't as relevant as one might think. And now, you've gotten your college football-Isaac Asimov analogy for the year.

This is really an interesting conversation and I appreciate your thoughtfulness and intellect. Here is the best illustration that I can create. Saban is Fulmer, with the ability to consistently draw the best talent in the SEC. When Fulmer had top talent, he won a ton of games, but he even dropped one or two he shouldn't have (think Memphis). Fulmer's decline was directly related to his wild swings in recruiting that came about due to other coaches who rose up and took away his fertile recruiting beds.

Saban lives by talent, not by scheme. Eventually a coach will come along that can match his talent, and run a scheme that defeats his style of defensive play. You have seen flashes of that from Meyer, Sumlin, Spurrier, Chizik/Malzahn. That is the answer, but too often guys like Petrino who run a system that is very powerful, forget that you need increasingly better players. That is why people think the spread or read option fails. No team runs that system who out-recruits Saban, or even recruits near him. Auburn is the closest in terms of raw talent. It will be interesting to see how Saban handles Auburn this year.

So yes, what Saban is doing IS good coaching. There are coaches who could be given similar talent and not win nearly as many games (Brown, Kiff, Chizik, Muschamp). My hypothesis, however, is that there are probably three or four times as many who could be given Saban's roster and do what he is doing (if recruiting wasn't a part of their job requirement).
 
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#28
#28
No.

I doubt vinyl siding salesmen would have the least idea about what it takes to put certain measurable traits of a human in the correct spot on a roster to win a football game.

Similarly, the ability to peck out a few snarky sentences on a message board proves no ability to understand football.
That post was tongue in cheek.
 
#30
#30
Yup. He and Muschamp are two of the largest under-performing coaches in college football. We are talking historical levels, similar to Dooley and Kiff.

Yeah, 10 win seasons and multiple conference/division championships suck. I would hate to have Mack Brown as a coach.

Boys I've offivially found the dumbest post of all of Volnation in it's history.
 
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#31
#31
Oh, no doubt. And that's pretty much what I am saying. I'd say he probably doesn't have to put as much effort into coaching as he did in the first couple years at Bammer. He has an all star staff, and all star players, both of which know what's expected of them. They police themselves.

It's like a pyramid scheme. Now he just sits back and rakes in the cash/wins.

I am not sure how good his staff is it is not like teams are beating down the door to hire them. I think the players make the staff but there is no doubt they know what is expected of them. If you watch Saban in the game he will go off on both the staff and players.
 
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#32
#32
Yeah, 10 win seasons and multiple conference/division championships suck. I would hate to have Mack Brown as a coach.

Boys I've offivially found the dumbest post of all of Volnation in it's history.

Agree 100%. Guy seems to have a lot to say, some good points for sure, a lot of his stuff is just football 101....nothing new, and some just pure nonsense.
 
#33
#33
Off the top of my head, I believe that Kelly left Jones a pretty unimpressive roster with some serious holes after he left for ND.

You are correct. There was a meltdown at Cincy by the players because Kelly treated them like dog s--- in the whole deal with ND.

Cincinnati Bearcats rip Brian Kelly as he leaves to become Notre Dame's new head coach - NY Daily News

That probably affected their attitude the next year a bit...but they also only had about half the starters coming back and lost their QB.
 
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#34
#34
Obvious the 1st thing I think about is how he replaced Brain Kelly at both stops and wonder if that is a bad thing that helps boost his results as a coach. Of course, Kelly took both schools to conference titles in3 years at each.

Then I think, Jones walked into a stable, good program and took MAC and BE talent and had success against MAC and BE talent. He beat N Illinois at CMU for their 1st win against them since 98 and had their 1st win at home against W Michigan since 93. He lost only 3 games in MAC play in 3 years.

He then tied for 1st in consecutive years (after a 4-8 start) at Cincy, again with BE talent against BE talent. Sure, he walked into solid programs, but continuing to win against the same level conference proves coaching.

I'll be glad when he has a potentially great team of good recruits so we can actually see if he can coach.

I know Ive post a lot lately, so if anyone wants me to chill on the posts I will lol :hi:
Thanks for the laugh.
 
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#35
#35
To use a really weird reference, but one that I hope someone on this board will understand, Newton and Manziel are the Mule to Nick Saban's Seldon's Plan. They can't be accounted or planned for and they will disrupt any scheme designed to contain them. The fact that they both happened to play in spread offenses isn't as relevant as one might think. And now, you've gotten your college football-Isaac Asimov analogy for the year.

LOVE the analogy, huge Asimov/Foundation fan here.

But you are giving Saban way too much credit comparing him to Seldon. Seldon was a genius. As pointed out above, Saban mostly just stockpiles an enormous amount of talent. Yes, he gets performance out of that talent. But give any coach in the country...well almost any coach....Saban-like talent and they also would win a ton of games.

In short, Saban has an overwhelming edge in talent every game...even against LSU, Florida, Auburn and Georgia, other SEC teams that have recruited well, just not as well as Saban. He then gets that talent to execute...but he doesn't fool anyone with Xs and Os like the OBC...he just gets his overwhelming talent advantage to execute.

I would love to see what he would do with Mississippi State talent. He had similar at Michigan State and was pretty average....although for Michigan State it was good.
 
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#36
#36
Richt called the "intentional TD" defense with 1:30 left so that he could get the ball back to tie or win. He did not have any respect for our D at that time either and took his chances with his offense. I'm sure he figured the more times their offense was against our defense, they would come out ahead.

Brilliant coaching on Richt's part. Decent coaching on Butch's part.

Do you really believe that? I guess Richt had the foresight to know they would get a PI call in the endzone.
 
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#37
#37
I am not sure how good his staff is it is not like teams are beating down the door to hire them. I think the players make the staff but there is no doubt they know what is expected of them. If you watch Saban in the game he will go off on both the staff and players.

I'll agree with that about the staff, its tough to guage weather the staffscompetance is an extension of the players or the head coach. however Kirby smart's name comes up in every coaching search (warranted or not). and yes, I do see saban get in their faces.

In all actuality, I have no idea how saban runs his program. He's a solid NCAA coach in all facets, and that probably explains his success.

Obvious post is obviously obvious.
 
#38
#38
And to the defense of brown being inept...

I liken it to fulmer. Great coach, hall of fame caliber, no doubt, but the game is passing him by and if he is not careful... Well, it may be too late for that.
He is not keeping up with the times, he is not spotting/utilizing talent (RG3, manziel as a DB, etc.) and that is why he has been grossly underperforming lately.

Im excited to see what happens at tejas. It could totally shake up college football, and if they are not careful, and did not learn from the real UT, they could cripple themselves in the process. I wanna watch it burn. I want to watch all programs and fan bases burn from the greed of "win now" or "what have you done for me lately" like what we have gone through these past few years. I just wonder who has paid attention and learned from our mistakes. Obviously, Florida hasn't and I love it. Here's to hoping they screw up another hire.
 
#39
#39
This is really an interesting conversation and I appreciate your thoughtfulness and intellect. Here is the best illustration that I can create. Saban is Fulmer, with the ability to consistently draw the best talent in the SEC. When Fulmer had top talent, he won a ton of games, but he even dropped one or two he shouldn't have (think Memphis). Fulmer's decline was directly related to his wild swings in recruiting that came about due to other coaches who rose up and took away his fertile recruiting beds.

Saban lives by talent, not by scheme. Eventually a coach will come along that can match his talent, and run a scheme that defeats his style of defensive play. You have seen flashes of that from Meyer, Sumlin, Spurrier, Chizik/Malzahn. That is the answer, but too often guys like Petrino who run a system that is very powerful, forget that you need increasingly better players. That is why people think the spread or read option fails. No team runs that system who out-recruits Saban, or even recruits near him. Auburn is the closest in terms of raw talent. It will be interesting to see how Saban handles Auburn this year.

So yes, what Saban is doing IS good coaching. There are coaches who could be given similar talent and not win nearly as many games (Brown, Kiff, Chizik, Muschamp). My hypothesis, however, is that there are probably three or four times as many who could be given Saban's roster and do what he is doing (if recruiting wasn't a part of their job requirement).

daj,

I was starting to respect your views until I read this. I know all of us UT hate Saban, but your post is dead wrong.

Look no further than the 2011 NC game vs LSU. Saban coached a superb game. If you want to go by recruiting explain the 2007 UT / Bama game.
 
#40
#40
Anybody doubting Butch 10 games in, based on how we preformed against three straight top 10 teams while using a true freshman quarterback and a roster that is severely undermanned is, in a word: AN IDIOT!!!!

All such folks should be flipped to ignore. (You can unignore them in 2016, if we are still losing by 30 points to these teams).

The word I was thinking of is a$$hole
 
#41
#41
Anybody doubting Butch 10 games in, based on how we preformed against three straight top 10 teams while using a true freshman quarterback and a roster that is severely undermanned is, in a word: AN IDIOT!!!!

All such folks should be flipped to ignore. (You can unignore them in 2016, if we are still losing by 30 points to these teams).

Call us idiots if you will, but the facts are that the defense is worse than last years!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wake up!! Jancek needs to go!!!
 
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#43
#43
daj,

I was starting to respect your views until I read this. I know all of us UT hate Saban, but your post is dead wrong.

Look no further than the 2011 NC game vs LSU. Saban coached a superb game. If you want to go by recruiting explain the 2007 UT / Bama game.

Bammer has more talent than LSU. Way more. The opposite is true...bammer should not have lost to LSU at home to begin with.

As for the 2007 game, bammer's talent then was about even with UT's. Any bammer will tell you that Shula was not a terrible recruiter. He was not on par with Saban, but then no one is. Tennessee didn't have a talent advantage on bammer in 2007.

Further 2007 was the worst Chavis D I can recall. We were very young in the secondary and it cost us.

And he DID say Saban was a good coach, and I will too. A VERY GOOD coach. He DID outcoach Fulmer in 2007 and Miles in 2011 (but Miles was an IDIOT for leaving the starting QB in and not going to his bench).

No one is saying that Saban is a bad coach...just that, by far, the STRONGEST ASSET he has is RECRUITING. Period, dot.
 
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#44
#44
daj,

I was starting to respect your views until I read this. I know all of us UT hate Saban, but your post is dead wrong.

Look no further than the 2011 NC game vs LSU. Saban coached a superb game. If you want to go by recruiting explain the 2007 UT / Bama game.

Did you even.make it to the first sentence of the third paragraph?

I don't blame you for not reading. If I disliked everything you said with as much consistency as you seem to dislike everything I say, I would probably blow you off after a few sentences too.
 
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#45
#45
And to the defense of brown being inept...

I liken it to fulmer. Great coach, hall of fame caliber, no doubt, but the game is passing him by and if he is not careful... Well, it may be too late for that.
He is not keeping up with the times, he is not spotting/utilizing talent (RG3, manziel as a DB, etc.) and that is why he has been grossly underperforming lately.

Im excited to see what happens at tejas. It could totally shake up college football, and if they are not careful, and did not learn from the real UT, they could cripple themselves in the process. I wanna watch it burn. I want to watch all programs and fan bases burn from the greed of "win now" or "what have you done for me lately" like what we have gone through these past few years. I just wonder who has paid attention and learned from our mistakes. Obviously, Florida hasn't and I love it. Here's to hoping they screw up another hire.

Fulmer vs Mack Brown is an interesting comparison. Lots of similarities. I tend to give the edge to Fulmer based on Texas being a much easier state to recruit than Tennessee.

By the numbers, Fulmer at UT was 152-52
Mack Brown at Texas (the FAKE UT) is 156-45

(I am ignoring Brown's records at Tulane and UNC)

Fulmer had his first losing season in 2005 after 13 years (if you count 1992 as his first year)
Brown had his first losing season after in 2010 after 13 years at 5-7.

Fulmer had his second losing season in 2008, 3 years after the first.

Mack Brown looked like he was on his way to a losing season this year also, three years after his first, but he turned it around.

So close it's crazy! :loco:

I give a slight edge to Fulmer....worse recruiting base and got to the NC quicker (took Fulmer 5 years and Brown 8). One could argue that Fulmer started with a stronger base, but that should not matter after 2-3 years.
 
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#46
#46
Obviously, Florida hasn't and I love it. Here's to hoping they screw up another hire.

I love seeing the smirk wiped off the arrogant UF fans faces who about 5 years ago were certain they would continue to win an NC every 2 years or so.

Bammer is next...believe it or not things change quickly in this game. Osborne at Nebraska looked unstoppable from 94-99, where is Nebraska today. Not to mention USC from 2002-2006, and even Bobby Bowden sucked for about the last 8-10 years of his career.

Now cue all the posters coming out of the woodwork to say saban is different. I don't think he is, other than being one of the greatest recruiting cheaters of all time, but we will see where bammer is in a few years.
 
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#47
#47
Yeah, 10 win seasons and multiple conference/division championships suck. I would hate to have Mack Brown as a coach.

Boys I've offivially found the dumbest post of all of Volnation in it's history.

Did you stop watching football in 2008? Good lord, don't look now but UT fired Fulmer, hired the former coach of the Raiders who left to coach USC to get fired. UT hired Vincent Dooley's son, who didn't work out. Now, Tennessee has the coach who was coaching Central Michigan the last time you knew anything about football.

Muschamp (the same guy who was DC at Texas before your coma) won 11 games last year at Florida and he is still the biggest under performing coach in the SEC. In your absence, Auburn hired Gene Chizik who won a national championship, stopped performing, and was unceremoniously ran out of town.
 
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#48
#48
Anybody doubting Butch 10 games in, based on how we preformed against three straight top 10 teams while using a true freshman quarterback and a roster that is severely undermanned is, in a word: AN IDIOT!!!!

All such folks should be flipped to ignore. (You can unignore them in 2016, if we are still losing by 30 points to these teams).

I think you are right
 
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