What I've been thinking on Jones resume

[BanditVol]

is it really so hard to believe that top-notch talent might also want to go play for a proven, multiple-championship winning coach with a track record of developing NFL talent? I personally don't think so. And while it's fun to speculate, I really don't think the Alabama program itself has to pay players to come. Boosters may be a different story.

I would have said something similar, but a little over a year ago, right before the 2012 season, I actually bothered to look up the recruiting rankings for the last several years. I was curious as to how well Fulmer had done at the end, how well Kiffin and Dooley had done, and also how other SEC teams, including bammer had done.

This is where I was shocked. It's the EXTENT to which bammer dominates in recruiting that simply made my jaw drop. Saban has dominated recruiting in a manner that is simply unatural.

Add to that the fact that I live in bama and hear all kinds of crap about the program constantly. Without even exerting myself, I could post at least 30-40 links to stuff that has appeared and then been ignored since Saban was there.

But never mind that..."if something seems too good to be true, it usually is" is all one has to say.

You of course can believe what you want, but what I think is not that bammer COULD get caught...IMO they are DEFINITELY cheating their arses off. It's just a matter of IF they will get caught. I'd say the odds are not great, but you never know.

 

[volbrawler]

Richt won. Did not get out coached by Jones. Georgia drove the length of the field and scored to force OT. If anyone got out coached, it was us. Personally I believe it was a draw on coaching.

Did the USA coach out coach CBJ? Following your Georgia logic, just staying close constitutes out coaching. So decide.


Spurrier got cute and conservative. It cost him. It also took a miracle grab to get in fg range. But I'll conceed that one to you.

With what both of those coaches had on the field versus what talent we placed on the field.. for us to even be in those games says a lot about CBJ's coaching. I'd say since UGA had to go into overtime.. it means Mark got out coached. Just because you win doesn't mean you coached a better game.

 

[JohnnyBall]

This is like a bizarro world thread

 

[Wylo]

With what both of those coaches had on the field versus what talent we placed on the field.. for us to even be in those games says a lot about CBJ's coaching. I'd say since UGA had to go into overtime.. it means Mark got out coached. Just because you win doesn't mean you coached a better game.

So by that logic, CBJ got outcoached by the USA coach...

Right?

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

I would have said something similar, but a little over a year ago, right before the 2012 season, I actually bothered to look up the recruiting rankings for the last several years. I was curious as to how well Fulmer had done at the end, how well Kiffin and Dooley had done, and also how other SEC teams, including bammer had done.

This is where I was shocked. It's the EXTENT to which bammer dominates in recruiting that simply made my jaw drop. Saban has dominated recruiting in a manner that is simply unatural.

Add to that the fact that I live in bama and hear all kinds of crap about the program constantly. Without even exerting myself, I could post at least 30-40 links to stuff that has appeared and then been ignored since Saban was there.

But never mind that..."if something seems too good to be true, it usually is" is all one has to say.

You of course can believe what you want, but what I think is not that bammer COULD get caught...IMO they are DEFINITELY cheating their arses off. It's just a matter of IF they will get caught. I'd say the odds are not great, but you never know.

Alabama is cheating on the same level SMU was back in the day they are just not getting caught. It's one thing to be a great recruiter but to completely dominate the recruiting field like he as is unprecedented.

 

[BigOrangeHomer]

Alabama is cheating on the same level SMU was back in the day they are just not getting caught. It's one thing to be a great recruiter but to completely dominate the recruiting field like he as is unprecedented.

Not getting caught or getting overlooked. Alabama simply makes too much money for the NCAA. Not to mention look who the president of the NCAA is.

 

[loservol]

Richt called the "intentional TD" defense with 1:30 left so that he could get the ball back to tie or win. He did not have any respect for our D at that time either and took his chances with his offense. I'm sure he figured the more times their offense was against our defense, they would come out ahead.

Brilliant coaching on Richt's part. Decent coaching on Butch's part.

I was screaming run off more clock and go for the field goal. Anyone with half a brain could tell Georgia let the Vols have that gimme touchdown.

 

[09dunbar]

The thing that I'm excited for is when his players become the system.

1st year at CMU was 8-6, then 3rd year at CMU he goes 11-2

1st yr at Cincy 4-8, and then his second and third year at Cincy he goes 10-3 and 9-3.

I honestly think next year we will have some surprises with these great recruits coming in.

 

[BanditVol]

Whether Nick Saban would succeed minus the talent he has just really isn't relevant. The fact is, he DOES have this talent, and until he starts getting reliably getting beaten in recruiting, he's not going to start getting reliably beaten on the field.

One further point....I think how he would do without the talent IS relevant, because I think he is cheating to get that talent. Therefore I think his entire legacy at bammer is tainted. If the NCAA ever quits ignoring the obvious, he WILL be busted.

Until that time, I will just point out again that when he had "typical SEC" talent at LSU and "typical D1" talent at MSU he did about how "any good coach" would do.

You do acknowledge that talent is a huge part of his success...the only thing I am quibbling about is that it IS...IMO...relevant, because of what I suspect about his recruiting.

 

[BanditVol]

The thing that I'm excited for is when his players become the system.

1st year at CMU was 8-6, then 3rd year at CMU he goes 11-2

1st yr at Cincy 4-8, and then his second and third year at Cincy he goes 10-3 and 9-3.

I honestly think next year we will have some surprises with these great recruits coming in.

It's way too early, especially since we have two games left, but Uga, USCe, and Mizzou will all lose their QBs.

Of course, in the case of Mizzou, Maty Mack is playing anyway, so that might not matter, but USCe and Uga both look to be in rebuilding mode a bit next year.

And who knows what's going to happen at UF....in short, the East should be wide open next year.

 

[Reverend Bubba Flavel]

I am being honest.

His system is simple and easy to execute.

Huh?
I thought Bamer runs one of the most complex defenses in college football

 

[DC Vol]

It's way too early, especially since we have two games left, but Uga, USCe, and Mizzou will all lose their QBs.

Of course, in the case of Mizzou, Maty Mack is playing anyway, so that might not matter, but USCe and Uga both look to be in rebuilding mode a bit next year.

And who knows what's going to happen at UF....in short, the East should be wide open next year.

Add Florida to that list.

 

[1967vol]

I must say that the analysis provided in this thread, especially by daj2576 and NashVOL93, are outstanding. I have noticed references to "develop talent" in regards to Saban and was wondering if anyone can provide any clues as to the programs he has to do this?

 

[1967vol]

I found this Saban's 'Process' goes beyond the game - Alabama Crimson Tide Blog - ESPN
maybe that is significant.

 

[daj2576]

Huh?
I thought Bamer runs one of the most complex defenses in college football

My point is that his success isn't anything more than accumulating more talent, and having that talent execute.

Besides, I have no idea how anyone could quantify "most complex". If you are relying on those in the media to communicate to you what is complex and what is simple, be careful, many of those people would have trouble explaining how to eat an ice cream cone.

 

[daj2576]

I must say that the analysis provided in this thread, especially by daj2576 and NashVOL93, are outstanding. I have noticed references to "develop talent" in regards to Saban and was wondering if anyone can provide any clues as to the programs he has to do this?

I have an hypothesis that I want to test, but I don't have the time to do it myself. Perhaps we can crowd source this. It would be interesting to see if Saban is truly developing talent. My theory is that if talent is developed that it goes on to succeed, once drafted, in the NFL. Look at Fulmer's classes through the late 90s and early 00's.

So the question is, once Saban gets superior talent, and it gets drafted, is it staying and performing in the NFL at a rate above or below other schools who push talent into the NFL?

The NFL is not my wheelhouse, so that might be an exceedingly obvious question with an obvious answer. My cursory findings, though, tend to support an idea that USC and Bama have had many players get drafted over the last decade, that they seem to have a higher percentage of players who don't meet expectations created by their performance in college.

Again, I could be very wrong about this as admittedly I watch 0 NFL football and have only dipped into looking at talent in relation to performance in the NFL at a very base level.

 

[Reverend Bubba Flavel]

My point is that his success isn't anything more than accumulating more talent, and having that talent execute.

Besides, I have no idea how anyone could quantify "most complex". If you are relying on those in the media to communicate to you what is complex and what is simple, be careful, many of those people would have trouble explaining how to eat an ice cream cone.

Not relying on media to tell me. Players have been fairly vocal about it. Plus it is obvious when watching them that they do a better job than anyone in football in getting the matchups that they want. That requires some complex reads and goes well beyond mere talent.

Saban's success goes far beyond merely getting talent.

 

[1967vol]

I have an hypothesis that I want to test, but I don't have the time to do it myself. Perhaps we can crowd source this. It would be interesting to see if Saban is truly developing talent. My theory is that if talent is developed that it goes on to succeed, once drafted, in the NFL. Look at Fulmer's classes through the late 90s and early 00's.

So the question is, once Saban gets superior talent, and it gets drafted, is it staying and performing in the NFL at a rate above or below other schools who push talent into the NFL?

The NFL is not my wheelhouse, so that might be an exceedingly obvious question with an obvious answer. My cursory findings, though, tend to support an idea that USC and Bama have had many players get drafted over the last decade, that they seem to have a higher percentage of players who don't meet expectations created by their performance in college.

Again, I could be very wrong about this as admittedly I watch 0 NFL football and have only dipped into looking at talent in relation to performance in the NFL at a very base level.

Not a big NFL fan myself either. But, it would seem to me that a college football coach would want to develop players for his team and system. Here are 3 examples of Saban player development, but how he did it is not clear.

Courtney Upshaw, OLB: Upshaw was the 131st overall player in the country in 2008. He was the 12th best linebacker in the country. Upshaw is a good example of development because big-time colleges and universities get a player like Upshaw in most recruiting classes who are big, fast and strong. However, Upshaw was arguably the best linebacker in the SEC this year next to Georgia’s Jarvis Jones. Upshaw was dynamic attacking the quarterback off the edge. Saban and his staff developed him from day one. He blossomed under the tutelage of Saban’s staff.

Dont’a Hightower, LB: Hightower was recruited from the state of Tennessee to Alabama, and he wasn’t even ranked in the top 250 players in the country. Go figure, right? This Alabama staff developed Hightower, and he will have a great NFL career because he knows how to play the game.

Marcell Dareus, DT: Dareus is a great example of how a program gets a good-sized, athletic defensive tackle who turns into a top-three NFL draft pick. Guess what Dareus was ranked coming out of high school? Well, he was a three-star, no-name recruit from Alabama. However, with the proper development (and God-given talent), Dareus progressed and became the No. 3 overall selection in the 2011 NFL Draft.

 

[1967vol]

Not relying on media to tell me. Players have been fairly vocal about it. Plus it is obvious when watching them that they do a better job than anyone in football in getting the matchups that they want. That requires some complex reads and goes well beyond mere talent.

Saban's success goes far beyond merely getting talent.

Yes, the more you look into it, this seems to be the case.

 

[MSCE09]

I believe the biggest factor is recruiting. It is what made Fulmer successful. It is what makes Saban successful. More teams succeed with good talent than the inverse. Teams that rely on coaching and over performance instead of top recruiting (Petrino at Arkansas, Sumlin, Franklin) tend to top out well below the championship level. Conversely, talent can't help a totally inept coach (Dooley, Muschamp, Brown, Kiff). The best combination, in my view, is a staff that can out-coach and out-recruit their competition. I can't find a staff in America that does both to perfection. It seems to me that what school's should do is put guys who can recruit in their own high paid position, and then put guys who can coach in a separate and similarly high paid position. The recruiter gets the players and hands them to the coach. That would be my way to revolutionize the system as it seems the grind of recruiting tends to wear down the guys we rely on to scheme (see Fulmer).

Basically you are describing an NFL General Manager. I think the NCAA limits on number of coaches is the only thing preventing a team from doing this.

 

[MSCE09]

I have an hypothesis that I want to test, but I don't have the time to do it myself. Perhaps we can crowd source this. It would be interesting to see if Saban is truly developing talent. My theory is that if talent is developed that it goes on to succeed, once drafted, in the NFL. Look at Fulmer's classes through the late 90s and early 00's.

So the question is, once Saban gets superior talent, and it gets drafted, is it staying and performing in the NFL at a rate above or below other schools who push talent into the NFL?

The NFL is not my wheelhouse, so that might be an exceedingly obvious question with an obvious answer. My cursory findings, though, tend to support an idea that USC and Bama have had many players get drafted over the last decade, that they seem to have a higher percentage of players who don't meet expectations created by their performance in college.

Again, I could be very wrong about this as admittedly I watch 0 NFL football and have only dipped into looking at talent in relation to performance in the NFL at a very base level.

Just anecdotal but I have seen a few comments from NFL people that Bama players come out all used up. Basically Saban uses them so hard that they come out of college on the downsides of their careers. There was some talk before the Titans took Chance Warmack that his knees were in much worse shape than you would expect for a rookie. But this seems especially true for the running backs. NFP Sunday Blitz | National Football Post

And, truth be told, with the way Nick uses his backs, he probably rubs some tread off the tires."

 

[1967vol]

I believe the biggest factor is recruiting. It is what made Fulmer successful. It is what makes Saban successful. More teams succeed with good talent than the inverse. Teams that rely on coaching and over performance instead of top recruiting (Petrino at Arkansas, Sumlin, Franklin) tend to top out well below the championship level. Conversely, talent can't help a totally inept coach (Dooley, Muschamp, Brown, Kiff). The best combination, in my view, is a staff that can out-coach and out-recruit their competition. I can't find a staff in America that does both to perfection. It seems to me that what school's should do is put guys who can recruit in their own high paid position, and then put guys who can coach in a separate and similarly high paid position. The recruiter gets the players and hands them to the coach. That would be my way to revolutionize the system as it seems the grind of recruiting tends to wear down the guys we rely on to scheme (see Fulmer).

I believe that is what Texas is now doing.

 

[patrick]

I am being honest.

Saban beats you with players, tons of them, who fit his system perfectly. His system is simple and easy to execute. In fact, he recruits so well that he should never lose a football game. Yet, he does. He loses football games to other coaches, with lessor talent, in systems that he does not understand how to defend. Look at the losses that he has had since starting at Bama, subtract LSU (who tries to play his game), and see what the remainder have in common. Answer: spread and/or read-option offensive attacks.

I can say that Saban falls short of perfection, without taking anything away from his BCS championships. The way the system is set up currently, he has been able to lose a game that he should win, and still make it. That all changes next year. It is very likely that he can no longer absorb a late season loss and still play in the big game.

Question - How do you factor in depth or lack thereof (and attrition)?

 

[knoxvols11]

The house that Majors built that Fulmer destroyed! Again, for all the Fulmerites out there, if you want to see just how well Fulmer could do as far as building a program from scratch, Jones will be that template! He will be out of here in two more years. I really hope I'm wrong but all he's proven so far is he can follow a good coach! If you want to disagree look at the shellackings we've took this year. Not just the W/L record... And don't say scheduleing etc.. Look at how bad the losses are!

 

[landscapingvol]

Richt called the "intentional TD" defense with 1:30 left so that he could get the ball back to tie or win. He did not have any respect for our D at that time either and took his chances with his offense. I'm sure he figured the more times their offense was against our defense, they would come out ahead.

Brilliant coaching on Richt's part. Decent coaching on Butch's part.

That is just stupid, intentional TD call good grief