Where do we stand talent-wise in 2013?

[majic73]

No playmaker at DE or home run threat at RB. QB is a complete unknown

How could you know that we have no playmaker at DE ? We ran an ill advised 3-4 last season ..no true DEs in that system

How could you know what our running backs are capable of ? We ran a sprint-draw running system for the last 3 years. Also ill-advised .

I agree with you on the QB ..no way to know at this point

 

[RichRollin]

that's only half the point.

i agree it's a weaker gator squad than several other gator squads of the last several years.

it doesn't mean that it's a squad that phil fulmer at the time he was let go would have beaten.

the other thing that i disagree with is that a lot of people treat florida as if they were down for several years.

they were 13-1 in 2008, 13-1 in 2009, 8-5 in 2010, 7-6 in 2011 and 11-2 in 2012.

so, we are really talking about two seasons. the last season for one coach and first season for another. in addition, as much as a lot of folks would like to dismiss the 2012 as weak because of what they were offensively, the 2012 squad beat several highly ranked teams.

if they have a strong 2013 (and i believe they will), it's a two year blip.

It hurt like hell, but I told people from the jump UF was for real in 12'. People are saying they don't compare to other UF teams because they were not fun to watch. They weren't a high flying offense. But wins are wins. That IMO is where the BCS is jacked up. Style points shouldn't be as important IMO because there are so many variables. Who did you play the week before,etc. And I don't see much difference in how UF wins compared to Bama, LSU, or the old ball control Tennessee teams. Yet when they do it they are viewed as physical, awesome...."grown man football". IMO Florida was one of the 10 best teams in the country. Flashy or not, them boys were tough.

I just vomited in my mouth.

 

[daj2576]

An "exception" in 1 in 3 years.

Not an outlier, I'm afraid.

It doesn't survive scrutiny. Fulmer had a natural recruiting disadvantage. The fact that other coaches were able to leverage their natural recruiting advantage better than past coaches at other schools, but still couldn't displace the Vols from the SECCG only cements Fulmer's place in Tennesee folklore.

To be clear, I am not saying that Fulmer is not deserving of his legendary status. What I am saying is that the game passed him by and so did his recruiting advantage. He wasn't disadvantaged in recruiting during his heyday, other schools were just negligent in locking down their talent.

He went to 6 SEC championship games. He had not won one in a decade, however. During his tenure, he averaged finishing 2nd in the SEC east. Those are great things, but to my point we should compare that to other coaches who I contend not only removed Fulmer's recruiting advantage, but could also perplex Fulmer's coaching schemes:

Saban: 6 SEC championship games out of 11 seasons; 4 national championships
Richt: 6 SEC championship games out of 12 seasons
Meyer: I won't address him because you do not accept him as a reasonable coach, so my time invested would fall on deaf ears.
Miles: 3 SEC championship games out of 8 seasons.
Spurrier: 9 trips to the SEC championship game out of 20 seasons.

More importantly, here are each coaches record against Fulmer:

Against Meyer, Miles, Richt, Saban, Spurrier and Tuberville, Fulmer is a combined 13-23

That is according to: How the SEC coaches rate against their peers - SEC Blog - ESPN

I will "bottom line" my perception of this for you. Fulmer had lost his edge against the pre-eminent competition in the SEC. These coaches could keep, develop and utilize their talent against an outmatched Fulmer.

Look, I love the guy and still get teary eyed when I re-watch his firing, or read about some of his speeches BUT Tennessee was not going to get back to his late 90's success until a change was made.

Change is incredibly tough even when it is done correctly. Tennessee did not handle this transition well and that is the cause of the pain that we are feeling to date.

 

[Biopsyman]

How could you know that we have no playmaker at DE ? We ran an ill advised 3-4 last season ..no true DEs in that system

How could you know what our running backs are capable of ? We ran a sprint-draw running system for the last 3 years. Also ill-advised .

I agree with you on the QB ..no way to know at this point

We ran the the 4-3 with many of current players last season as well as in 2012 with very little sack totals from the DE spot. How many career sacks does J Smith have? Not many. Jordan Williams may develop... All I saying we do not have any one that is feared currently at that position.

We also ran of toss sweeps in addition to the sprint draws over the past 2 seasons which did not produce a lot is yards. I would trade the backs at the current top teir team over our backs..

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

NOT unless you assess the attrition...

I listed the two deep earlier in the thread. I'm not saying by any means that we have upper tier SEC caliber players. But CBJ does have some talent to work with. We'll find out soon enough if he can do anything with it.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[majic73]

We ran the the 4-3 with many of current players last season as well as in 2012 with very little sack totals from the DE spot. How many career sacks does J Smith have? Not many. Jordan Williams may develop... All I saying we do not have any one that is feared currently at that position.

We also ran of toss sweeps in addition to the sprint draws over the past 2 seasons which did not produce a lot is yards. I would trade the backs at the current top teir team over our backs..

Not that I disagree with the definate lack of success ...its just that there may be other reasons other than player talent.

Wilcox ran a coverage system with the line earmarked to contain the edges ...not to rush the passer. He also did not blitz , which aids the edge rushers . In the train wreck that we had last season , there were no defensive ends .

The offense was not blocked correctly more than half the time . It was all finesse and the rare occossions when they went power the backs had good success ...until it was abondoned . They were also predictable by formation which did not help the running game ..or the passing game for that matter . Butch runs alot of power and his offenses are not predictable .

I would keep on open mind on some positions , They can be better given proper coaching ( see Ainge / Cutcliff ) We all know the coaching was bad to the point of being goofy ...so there is ope yet.

 

[RichRollin]

Not that I disagree with the definate lack of success ...its just that there may be other reasons other than player talent.

Wilcox ran a coverage system with the line earmarked to contain the edges ...not to rush the passer. He also did not blitz , which aids the edge rushers . In the train wreck that we had last season , there were no defensive ends .

The offense was not blocked correctly more than half the time . It was all finesse and the rare occossions when they went power the backs had good success ...until it was abondoned . They were also predictable by formation which did not help the running game ..or the passing game for that matter . Butch runs alot of power and his offenses are not predictable .

I would keep on open mind on some positions , They can be better given proper coaching ( see Ainge / Cutcliff ) We all know the coaching was bad to the point of being goofy ...so there is ope yet.

Legit NFL starters looked like the worst players at their respective positions under Dave Clawson. Arian Foster went from a 1200 yd 300+ rec yds and double digit TDs season to undrafted. The entire offense looked embarrassing and a first ballot HALL of Fame coach even got fired over it. That's what bad coaching can do.

Sal was the defensive Dave Clawson.

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

I will "bottom line" my perception of this for you. Fulmer had lost his edge against the pre-eminent competition in the SEC. These coaches could keep, develop and utilize their talent against an outmatched Fulmer.

This entire argument only cements my case and undermines your point that they were head and shoulders above Fulmer as a coach.

Fulmer had a natural recruiting disadvantage relative to all these other coaches (two of whom are clearly better than everyone else). Yet Fulmer always had Tennessee in the SECCG even during a stretch where the SECE was at its strongest.

Examples: during that period he played Tubberville three times when he had assembled the BEST team of the decade (and played them better than anyone else in that time period).

But let's look at Spurrier - how many SECCG has he attended post Florida now that his natural recruiting advantage has evaporated?

Exactly. However, I would maintain that single visit (where he was demolished) only cemented his credentials. He managed to break even against TN only because we had the worst 5* QB play in the history of the NCAA (and Clawson).

Meanwhile, the East has been weaker than at any time since expansion and because of change, Tennessee has failed to capitalize.

 

[99gator]

The east has always been weak and i would argue it's stronger since spurrier came to South Carolina than at any other time.

The only two teams worth a damn in the 90's were Tennessee and Florida

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

The east has always been weak and i would argue it's stronger since spurrier came to South Carolina than at any other time.

The only two teams worth a damn in the 90's were Tennessee and Florida

Georgia underperformed relative to their talent in the 1990s. It could be argued, especially in the first half of the decade, it was as good as yours.

However, both TN and Florida were in the hunt and in the mix for SEC and national titles every year during much of the decade.

Having three tier 2 teams does not make the division stronger than having two tier 1 teams. Ask the West.

 

[99gator]

Georgia underperformed relative to their talent in the 1990s. It could be argued, especially in the first half of the decade, it was as good as yours.

However, both TN and Florida were in the hunt and in the mix for SEC and national titles every year during much of the decade.

Having three tier 2 teams does not make the division stronger than having two tier 1 teams. Ask the West.

Depends if you prefer depth or the # of elite teams.

Right off the bat, the west is better because ole miss/miss state are better than vandy/ky.

The east was two diamonds and a bunch of trash in the 90's

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

Depends if you prefer depth or the # of elite teams.

Right off the bat, the west is better because ole miss/miss state are better than vandy/ky.

The east was two diamonds and a bunch of trash in the 90's

And two diamonds >> four to six high quality zirconia.

I think Vandy might dispute you on that one right now, 99.

And, in the time period we are talking about, KY was an annual bowl team.

The quality argument can't stand. Not sure the depth one does either, but it's got a fighting chance at least.

 

[KBVol]

Depends if you prefer depth or the # of elite teams.

Right off the bat, the west is better because ole miss/miss state are better than vandy/ky.

The east was two diamonds and a bunch of trash in the 90's

2 diamonds (UT & Fla), 1 cubic zirconium (Georgia), and 3 pieces of absolute crap (Vandy, SCar & Ky) IMHO.

 

[99gator]

And two diamonds >> four to six high quality zirconia.

I think Vandy might dispute you on that one right now, 99.

And, in the time period we are talking about, KY was an annual bowl team.

The quality argument can't stand. Not sure the depth one does either, but it's got a fighting chance at least.

I am willing to bet heavily that ole miss/miss state have beaten more power programs since divisional play than vandy/ky and it isn't close

I

 

[daj2576]

This entire argument only cements my case and undermines your point that they were head and shoulders above Fulmer as a coach.

Fulmer had a natural recruiting disadvantage relative to all these other coaches (two of whom are clearly better than everyone else). Yet Fulmer always had Tennessee in the SECCG even during a stretch where the SECE was at its strongest.

Examples: during that period he played Tubberville three times when he had assembled the BEST team of the decade (and played them better than anyone else in that time period).

But let's look at Spurrier - how many SECCG has he attended post Florida now that his natural recruiting advantage has evaporated?

Exactly. However, I would maintain that single visit (where he was demolished) only cemented his credentials. He managed to break even against TN only because we had the worst 5* QB play in the history of the NCAA (and Clawson).

Meanwhile, the East has been weaker than at any time since expansion and because of change, Tennessee has failed to capitalize.

I am not certain that we are really arguing against each other here.

The only place where I strongly disagree is that Fulmer, during his strongest run, was NOT at a disadvantage recruiting. That came later, when his fertile recruiting grounds became prime fishing holes for in-state coaches.

Either way, I am not sure what the point you are trying to make is. We both agree that Fulmer deserves his status as a hall of fame coach.

I have a feeling that your argument is based on trying to support your conclusion, and that is that Fulmer was wrongfully fired and that has been the cause of our demise.

On the flip side of that argument is that I am trying to objectively determine why we have been in a constant downward trend, and the data I see actually shows clearly that our downward trend started before Fulmer was ousted.

Either way you look at it, things have not gotten better since 2008 due to some follies by the administration.

 

[thebjd]

I am not certain that we are really arguing against each other here.

The only place where I strongly disagree is that Fulmer, during his strongest run, was NOT at a disadvantage recruiting. That came later, when his fertile recruiting grounds became prime fishing holes for in-state coaches.

Either way, I am not sure what the point you are trying to make is. We both agree that Fulmer deserves his status as a hall of fame coach.

I have a feeling that your argument is based on trying to support your conclusion, and that is that Fulmer was wrongfully fired and that has been the cause of our demise.

On the flip side of that argument is that I am trying to objectively determine why we have been in a constant downward trend, and the data I see actually shows clearly that our downward trend started before Fulmer was ousted.

Either way you look at it, things have not gotten better since 2008 due to some follies by the administration.

I don't think anyone would have fired Fulmer had they been able to see the next four years.

 

[daj2576]

I don't think anyone would have fired Fulmer had they been able to see the next four years.

hindsight is always 20/20.

And I agree, even the staunchest proponents of firing Fulmer would have hesitated had they known what Tennessee football would look like in the ensuing five years.

If I had a do-over (and I don't) I would have wanted Fulmer to work out his remaining contract under the "secret" agreement that he was retiring at that contracts end, then we could have taken our time and found a competent replacement.

To that point, Clay Travis in his book "On Rocky Top" seemed to believe that Dave Clawson was going to be the coach in waiting.

Regardless, we can't change the past.

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

hindsight is always 20/20.

And I agree, even the staunchest proponents of firing Fulmer would have hesitated had they known what Tennessee football would look like in the ensuing five years.

If I had a do-over (and I don't) I would have wanted Fulmer to work out his remaining contract under the "secret" agreement that he was retiring at that contracts end, then we could have taken our time and found a competent replacement.

To that point, Clay Travis in his book "On Rocky Top" seemed to believe that Dave Clawson was going to be the coach in waiting.

Regardless, we can't change the past.

Daj,

We generally agree. Just two points:

I think the conversation between you and bjd have summarized the first point I was trying to make, except I would classify myself in the LWS camp of those folk who realized letting Hambone make that decision was more inept than a Sal Sunseri defense, and that the likely outcome would be a decade in the wilderness. I would disagree with the hindsight 20/20 argument.

I would also say, since you are in the business, I'm sure you will find that Fulmer outperformed all Vegas metrics relative to talent if you go back through the years. It's been done very convincingly on this site before. There are a few outliers to be sure (Memphis being probably the largest and most significant; we simply cannot count Wyoming in good faith), but for the most part, Fulmer is on par with Saban and Spurrier on that count.

What I can say is that your "secret" plan, I think, is far better than what transpired, and probably could have been acceptable to all parties.

 

[LWSVOL]

Daj,

We generally agree. Just two points:

I think the conversation between you and bjd have summarized the first point I was trying to make, except I would classify myself in the LWS camp of those folk who realized letting Hambone make that decision was more inept than a Sal Sunseri defense, and that the likely outcome would be a decade in the wilderness. I would disagree with the hindsight 20/20 argument.

I would also say, since you are in the business, I'm sure you will find that Fulmer outperformed all Vegas metrics relative to talent if you go back through the years. It's been done very convincingly on this site before. There are a few outliers to be sure (Memphis being probably the largest and most significant; we simply cannot count Wyoming in good faith), but for the most part, Fulmer is on par with Saban and Spurrier on that count.

What I can say is that your "secret" plan, I think, is far better than what transpired, and probably could have been acceptable to all parties.

nope. Hamilton wished to make a splash with a football coach hire. expected it to make his legacy and it did just not how he expected.

He lobbied long and hard and got those with the power to let him move forward. He would never have agreed to any other plan. He had his replacement ready weeks before pulling the trigger on CPF...

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

nope. Hamilton wished to make a splash with a football coach hire. expected it to make his legacy and it did just not how he expected.

He lobbied long and hard and got those with the power to let him move forward. He would never have agreed to any other plan. He had his replacement ready weeks before pulling the trigger on CPF...

Larry, thanks for this insight. There are some folks on this site who still don't realize that it was all Hambone and that he was making the big push.

What is a jaw-dropping revelation in this post is that Hambone fired our HoF coach to hire Lane Kiffin's Daddy??!!!! When has another head coach ever had a "Daddy clause" to come coach a football team? I've always had difficulty believing Lane Kiffin was truly Plan A for the post-Fulmer years, but that is a jawdropping revelation.

Is it any wonder Hambone believed the fix was Derek Dooley? SMDH.

We can truly lay the blame at one person for the five year fiasco - Mike Hambone Hamilton.

 

[daj2576]

Daj,

We generally agree. Just two points:

I think the conversation between you and bjd have summarized the first point I was trying to make, except I would classify myself in the LWS camp of those folk who realized letting Hambone make that decision was more inept than a Sal Sunseri defense, and that the likely outcome would be a decade in the wilderness. I would disagree with the hindsight 20/20 argument.

I would also say, since you are in the business, I'm sure you will find that Fulmer outperformed all Vegas metrics relative to talent if you go back through the years. It's been done very convincingly on this site before. There are a few outliers to be sure (Memphis being probably the largest and most significant; we simply cannot count Wyoming in good faith), but for the most part, Fulmer is on par with Saban and Spurrier on that count.

What I can say is that your "secret" plan, I think, is far better than what transpired, and probably could have been acceptable to all parties.

I wouldn't necessarily say I am in the business, just that I get to spend a lot of time looking at how talent and coaching effect the outcome of games. My job is a total fantasy and blessing, at least to me.

As far as hindsight being 20/20, my point was to say that even those who disagree that Fulmer should have been kept, agree that if they had known how bad things would ultimately be that they wouldn't have been so quick to cut him loose.

My ultimate point still remains, that regardless of how well Fulmer had done, his win totals were declining and there is no objective evaluation that could be done to presume that they would ever increase. Even with going to the SEC championship game every three years, he was less likely to win one each time. His coaching had become predictable, his recruiting had fallen way off (not his fault, but he could not overcome this) and he was on the downhill side of a substantial peak. Yes, I am positive that he beat Vegas, but I am not a gambler. I am also positive that he could no longer regularly beat the best of the SEC.

I don't accept the argument that he is the best for our program in the long run. I will compromise with you and agree that it was the timing of his firing and several subsequent decisions that have lead to our current position.

He absolutely should have been allowed to work out his contract.

In essence, I believe you are correct. His firing caused our orbit to spin out of control and send us into the wilderness. I believe that is because almost every subsequent decision was poorly crafted and seemed to assure that fate.

 

[daj2576]

Larry, thanks for this insight. There are some folks on this site who still don't realize that it was all Hambone and that he was making the big push.

What is a jaw-dropping revelation in this post is that Hambone fired our HoF coach to hire Lane Kiffin's Daddy??!!!! When has another head coach ever had a "Daddy clause" to come coach a football team? I've always had difficulty believing Lane Kiffin was truly Plan A for the post-Fulmer years, but that is a jawdropping revelation.

Is it any wonder Hambone believed the fix was Derek Dooley? SMDH.

We can truly lay the blame at one person for the five year fiasco - Mike Hambone Hamilton.

Totally agree.

 

[RichRollin]

Some good info being slung around up in here. Good stuff Daj, LWS, and Eddie VH!

 

[photovol]

Unfortunately the Vols are 3rd from the bottom of the SEC in talent...it's truly sad, but true.

 

[VOL-in-Kentucky]

No playmaker at DE or home run threat at RB. QB is a complete unknown

That is a good short summation. There are many that expect Joshua Dobbs to play this season and if he is a play maker than that can help us win games than that will help. I'm not selling Worley/Peterman short just haven't seen true play making ability and consistency yet it may be there. With the return to 4-3, will Walls, J. Smith finally get some better pass rushing? Really want to see our rb's take it to another level. It is possible they are just not that talented, just serviceable. While the ability to score quickly will certainly not be at the level of last season ball control can help the defense with possession time and field position.