White Pride; Negative Connotation

[Weezer]

I can see that point. When I think of Black History Month, I don't think of celebrating black people per se, but the Civil Rights Movement and what they accomplished.

Maybe that's just me.

And what they accomplished was great, therefore it should be taught in American history. When I was in school, which was a while ago, I felt not enough emphasis was placed on it. In today's world, we should not accept that. It's history. It's American history.

Out of curiosity, have you read or listened to Dr. King's I Have a Dream speech?

 

[zjcvols]

Here's my problem with that, many black Americans claim to be African Americans. If you make that claim you acknowledge both cultures and therefore should acknowledge the sins of both cultures. As a white American, I agree that I am ashamed of many things in this country's past, slavery just being one of them. But I am an American and claim no other culture than that. I do not consider myself a racist, but when people claim to be African American, Latino American, etc., I have a problem with it. We are all Americans and I see no reason to differentiate ourselves with labels. Labels perpetuate stereotypes and serve no purpose but division.

I disagree. In my limited experience with blacks, they all prefer black. The African-American thing to me is media driven in this PC world for some odd reason.

I'm with you about the labels though. They need to go. Labels are a nicer way to say stereotypes.

I'd love to get the opinion of some of our black posters on the subject.

 

[zjcvols]

And what they accomplished was great, therefore it should be taught in American history. When I was in school, which was a while ago, I felt not enough emphasis was placed on it. In today's world, we should not accept that. It's history. It's American history.

Out of curiosity, have you read or listened to Dr. King's I Have a Dream speech?

Yes, I have. I thought it was moving. Actually, one of my most fondest memories is standing exactly where Dr. King stood when he gave the speech in D.C. on the Lincoln Memorial (Ironic considering Lincoln was racist, but alas).

I personally love Letters from Birmingham Jail more though. I just love the personal examples and while the I have a dream was moving and inspirational, LFBJ was just this incredible amount of passion brought out in him and his attitude throughout the piece is exhilarating.

In case you can't tell, I am doing an English paper on his letters

 

[PoochPunt3rdDown]

This is important too Poochie.

In the 179 years before the death of Dr. King, blacks were treated incredibly bad by the government. All minorities actually, including white (Irish especially). So I think among blacks there is a general mistrust among a majority white government that they don't care about them and only care about who is like them.

It's why I didn't have such a big issue when blacks came out in droves to support President Obama. They felt that for once, they would have someone looking out for them, and that equality and racism would disappear. Sadly, that hasn't happened, and it was an unfair idea to have (although Obama has done nothing to help race relations, and it sucks because he can).

Blacks are not going to vote differently until they find someone they can relate to and who will fight for them. Bill Clinton was better for race relations than Obama has been so far, but I think by virtue of obtaining the highest office, Obama will develop in the public's opinion from the times he didn't just reach across the aisle but instead made a stand, whether he was entirely principled on the matter, or politically motivated on the policy. He has done a lot since he has been in office, when you factor in some of the opponents with whom he had to deal. I'll leave it at that, because the rest of the story is still to come....

 

[zjcvols]

Great point about the even more insidious (as if it wasn't already awful enough) side of the Trail.

As to your point about blacks being sold into slavery by other blacks, I'm fairly sure it was akin to the caste system in India, where there were certain tribes, families, or what have you, that were responsible for exploiting the vast majority of the slaves who were sold to Americans. This doesn't make it any less despicable, but I think it's very near-sighted to say their weren't huge differences amongst different sects of Africans, and some were just looked down on and used, because of different reasons that were akin in theory to why many protestant whites looked down on Catholics and almost everyone except blacks and natives looked down on the Irish. It was based upon ancient divisions that should have been wiped away by the migration to the America, where everyone was supposed to be equal.

A great example here in Tennessee was the Melungeons of Newman's Ridge. They were a mixed race group of people who were Native American, Sub-Saharan African, and Iberian Peninsula European. They had very dark complexions and were classified, at different times throughout, as white, "Free Nego", but were mainly discriminated against because they weren't understood. To me, they were the most indicative of all people in Tennessee of what America was to become, with the blending of cultures and bloodlines, but absconded themselves on the Ridge to avoid persecution, all while developing a culture that would not be accepted until the 1960s and is now a part of American folklore. It seems we tend to find out later how rich diversity is, after we missed it while it was occurring just up the hill...

The Trail is a great example of American's dark side, and it scares me how few people know about the incredible amount of hatred towards Native Americans.

The Dawes Act, American Indian schools. I mean, people don't understand that government officials were talking about a genocide of all Native Americans.

 

[PoochPunt3rdDown]

Did y'all see my post at the bottom of the previous page? If not, I'd appreciate your thoughts on it.

 

[zjcvols]

Blacks are not going to vote differently until they find someone they can relate to and who will fight for them. Bill Clinton was better for race relations than Obama has been so far, but I think by virtue of obtaining the highest office, Obama will develop in the public's opinion from the times he didn't just reach across the aisle but instead made a stand, whether he was entirely principled on the matter, or politically motivated on the policy. He has done a lot since he has been in office, when you factor in some of the opponents with whom he had to deal. I'll leave it at that, because the rest of the story is still to come....

Though I'm not a fan, I admire when Obama took office. It was very moving for me as an American, and while it doesn't seem like it at this point, I think is a big step towards race relations in this country. I hope after his presidency (because he does have a lot on his plate right now) he moves toward equality for all because I think he can be a big influence.

I hate all politicians, so I won't delve into his political work.

The government has got to start acknowledging the fact that minorities feel against them. Whether that is right or wrong, it's a big issue. You hear about blacks feeling racially profiled, not getting the promotion, etc. Has the government done some? Yes. But they make the law and it doesn't feel enforced like it should be.

JMO.

 

[zjcvols]

Did y'all see my post at the bottom of the previous page? If not, I'd appreciate your thoughts on it.

Post number?

 

[Weezer]

Great point about the even more insidious (as if it wasn't already awful enough) side of the Trail.

As to your point about blacks being sold into slavery by other blacks, I'm fairly sure it was akin to the caste system in India, where there were certain tribes, families, or what have you, that were responsible for exploiting the vast majority of the slaves who were sold to Americans. This doesn't make it any less despicable, but I think it's very near-sighted to say their weren't huge differences amongst different sects of Africans, and some were just looked down on and used, because of different reasons that were akin in theory to why many protestant whites looked down on Catholics and almost everyone except blacks and natives looked down on the Irish. It was based upon ancient divisions that should have been wiped away by the migration to the America, where everyone was supposed to be equal.

A great example here in Tennessee was the Melungeons of Newman's Ridge. They were a mixed race group of people who were Native American, Sub-Saharan African, and Iberian Peninsula European. They had very dark complexions and were classified, at different times throughout, as white, "Free Nego", but were mainly discriminated against because they weren't understood. To me, they were the most indicative of all people in Tennessee of what America was to become, with the blending of cultures and bloodlines, but absconded themselves on the Ridge to avoid persecution, all while developing a culture that would not be accepted until the 1960s and is now a part of American folklore. It seems we tend to find out later how rich diversity is, after we missed it while it was occurring just up the hill...

Unfortunately, some variation of a caste system develops in every society. The point you apply to Africans also applies to Americans as well. Not all white Americans supported slavery. In fact, many white Americans basically became slaves themselves through indentured servitude. People tend to paint history in broad strokes, but when you look deeper, you see the canvas is much murkier than it appears.

As to Africans selling other Africans into slavery, I believe the most common form was selling prisoners from other tribes captured during war.

 

[zjcvols]

Unfortunately, some variation of a caste system develops in every society. The point you apply to Africans also applies to Americans as well. Not all white Americans supported slavery. In fact, many white Americans basically became slaves themselves through indentured servitude. People tend to paint history in broad strokes, but when you look deeper, you see the canvas is much murkier than it appears.

As to Africans selling other Africans into slavery, I believe the most common form was selling prisoners from other tribes captured during war.

Very good point and forgotten. Almost brought that up myself.

And yes. And in about 95% of POWs, you kill them anyways. Instead you got something out of them. Not encouraging it, just saying.

 

[Weezer]

Though I'm not a fan, I admire when Obama took office. It was very moving for me as an American, and while it doesn't seem like it at this point, I think is a big step towards race relations in this country. I hope after his presidency (because he does have a lot on his plate right now) he moves toward equality for all because I think he can be a big influence.

I hate all politicians, so I won't delve into his political work.

The government has got to start acknowledging the fact that minorities feel against them. Whether that is right or wrong, it's a big issue. You hear about blacks feeling racially profiled, not getting the promotion, etc. Has the government done some? Yes. But they make the law and it doesn't feel enforced like it should be.

JMO.

Ditto.

IMO, politicians are all about the advancement of themselves and their party's agenda. They've forgotten to place the needs of America above all else. They've forgotten they represent constituents, and not the party they are in. They've forgotten what America is.

 

[zjcvols]

Ditto.

IMO, politicians are all about the advancement of themselves and their party's agenda. They've forgotten to place the needs of America above all else. They've forgotten they represent constituents, and not the party they are in. They've forgotten what America is.

The American system was not created just to have party lines that dominate for 100 years.

 

[Weezer]

The American system was not created just to have party lines that dominate for 100 years.

If I remember correctly, George Washington was against the formation of political parties. The state of our country today suggests he was right.

 

[NEO]

Americans should be proud of being the greatest modern civilization in the history of the world. We have done and invented more and greater than any country, ever.

But, I still think we have the largest scars of any country because we completely demoralized and denigrated almost every other race of people in this country, including the natives, for the vast majority of our collective history. I know, I know, it's easy for me to be so haughty and judge when my country is one of the few that completely allows me the freedom to do just that, but I just don't think we should ever forget what we did until 1863 and then continued to do until the 1960s, all while already having wiped out the unspeakably vast majority of natives hundreds of years ago. To celebrate a great deal of our past has always left me conflicted. On the other hand, it's always been simple to understand the pride of Black Americans and Native Americans, for they really had to fight and endure together, as the vast minorities, I don't even have the words to say what they experienced, while white Americans were running all over them.

I've always found most of those who were overtly proud to be white to be ignorant and insecure. No **** we should be proud of our accomplishments, but in the face of what we did to other races during the founding and growth of this country, we still haven't done enough to assuage the shame of years past. I'm not talking about Affirmative Action or reparations, I'm talking about understanding that, as is often the case in history, the greatest heights were achieved by those walking on the backs of the marginalized to succeed.

I celebrate Black History Month and abhor those who say things such as, "well what about White History Month?" What about it? It was almost every month of every year until so recently I'm ashamed to think about it.

This country is great, now, because it's a palette of color, race, and mixtures are happening more frequently because we're evolving. To celebrate the history of "white" America, is to ignorantly omit the bad while only celebrating the good. Who could celebrate the Trail of Tears or Jim Crow laws? They are most undoubtedly an example of what you get when you want to see colorless, white pride.



I'm gonna get murdered for that.

I agree with almost everything you said but...

native americans were not innocent and wiped out many of their own tribes. we just wiped out the rest.

africans are not innocent and sold many of their own people we just took them and shipped them overseas and used them as slaves

japanes invaded china and raped and murdered but we just dropped a bigger bomb on them and knocked them back a few steps.

germans killed jews but we killed more germans

and it goes on and on.

america was just very good at kickjing ass and taking names for hundreds of years and still is...its really what we do best and it is the reason we are where we are.

all races have tried to wipe someone out at some point, the white race just did it better.

....for good or bad.

 

[PoochPunt3rdDown]

Unfortunately, some variation of a caste system develops in every society. The point you apply to Africans also applies to Americans as well. Not all white Americans supported slavery. In fact, many white Americans basically became slaves themselves through indentured servitude. People tend to paint history in broad strokes, but when you look deeper, you see the canvas is much murkier than it appears.

As to Africans selling other Africans into slavery, I believe the most common form was selling prisoners from other tribes captured during war.

(I'm gonna preface this post with a disclaimer: I'm just reporting what I understand to be history. I hope it doesn't offend)

A lot of the Mountain Folk didn't care about the slavery issue, because they were too poor to own any. But, they were torn on the issue because they were definitely racist. I've always thought of it like the second most picked on kid on the playground beating the snot out of the most picked on. He finally got away, but he sure as hell wasn't looking at him as no companion. The Scotch-Irish of the Tennessee hills were not fans of blacks, but they were fans of freedom, and were fiercely independent. I think that independence but geographical association has had a huge influence on why East Tennessee is so conservative and there are so many Ron Paul supporters; the Mountain Folk just wanted to be left entirely alone, didn't trust the government, or blacks, or pretty much anyone but themselves. Although this isolated them until the early 20th Century, they were never going to belong to any country that would enslave anyone. That hit too close to home. They didn't want the blacks around, but they didn't want them in chains, either. I also think this attitude, unfortunately, like the independent streak permeated generations up until very recent. It's the one thing I've always hated about Tennessee; the learned bigotry.

 

[NEO]

there were no irish signs during the same period as no blacks signs to further your point pooch

 

[zjcvols]

I agree with almost everything you said but...

native americans were not innocent and wiped out many of their own tribes. we just wiped out the rest.

africans are not innocent and sold many of their own people we just took them and shipped them overseas and used them as slaves

japanes invaded china and raped and murdered but we just dropped a bigger bomb on them and knocked them back a few steps.

germans killed jews but we killed more germans

and it goes on and on.

america was just very good at kickjing ass and taking names for hundreds of years and still is...its really what we do best and it is the reason we are where we are.

all races have tried to wipe someone out at some point, the white race just did it better.

....for good or bad.

Does it make it right?

And it doesn't matter. Native Americans were here first and we basically said "Boo hoo, go die now." Not too mention taking their children away and putting them into schools to teach them proper "white culture". Yes Native Americans killed each other. But the US government did most of the leg work.

 

[NEO]

Does it make it right?

And it doesn't matter. Native Americans were here first and we basically said "Boo hoo, go die now." Not too mention taking their children away and putting them into schools to teach them proper "white culture". Yes Native Americans killed each other. But the US government did most of the leg work.

they had a hand it in no doubt but is it our fault we were better united and they were not?

is it our fault canada was not able to defeat us?

or mexico?

or spain?

or england?

or germany?

or japan?

is it our fault we are the biggest kid on the block.

with great power comes great decisions and we have made a bunch of bad decisions...but it is not our fault that we were placed in the position to be able to make these decisions.

any of the above would have wiped us out if they had the chance and they failed too.

 

[PoochPunt3rdDown]

Ha. I just spent forever typing a long ass post and then said, "wait a minute, how the hell did I end up talking about this?" It would seriously take up about a quarter of a 50 post page. I'll read it tomorrow and see if it's any good. Night guys, I'm exhausted.

 

[Weezer]

(I'm gonna preface this post with a disclaimer: I'm just reporting what I understand to be history. I hope it doesn't offend)

A lot of the Mountain Folk didn't care about the slavery issue, because they were too poor to own any. But, they were torn on the issue because they were definitely racist. I've always thought of it like the second most picked on kid on the playground beating the snot out of the most picked on. He finally got away, but he sure as hell wasn't looking at him as no companion. The Scotch-Irish of the Tennessee hills were not fans of blacks, but they were fans of freedom, and were fiercely independent. I think that independence but geographical association has had a huge influence on why East Tennessee is so conservative and there are so many Ron Paul supporters; the Mountain Folk just wanted to be left entirely alone, didn't trust the government, or blacks, or pretty much anyone but themselves. Although this isolated them until the early 20th Century, they were never going to belong to any country that would enslave anyone. That hit too close to home. They didn't want the blacks around, but they didn't want them in chains, either. I also think this attitude, unfortunately, like the independent streak permeated generations up until very recent. It's the one thing I've always hated about Tennessee; the learned bigotry.

I wasn't refering to Mountain Folk per se in regards to not every American supporting slavery. There were many white Americans who risked their lives supporting the Underground Railroad. Had they been caught, they most likely would have been killed.

As far as early Mountain Folk, I don't really consider it racism when you basically hate everyone but your own. I think racism developed over the generations and that it was a result of learned bigotry. As the Mountain Folk opened up to society, they were taught hating black Americans was the norm. I do believe racism in East TN is, unfortunately, very much alive. That may be what you just said, but I put it out in my words to make sure.

Great conversation, but I have to go to bed. I'm supposed to get up for work in two hours, so I need to get a little sleep.

 

[zjcvols]

they had a hand it in no doubt but is it our fault we were better united and they were not?

is it our fault canada was not able to defeat us?

or mexico?

or spain?

or england?

or germany?

or japan?

is it our fault we are the biggest kid on the block.

with great power comes great decisions and we have made a bunch of bad decisions...but it is not our fault that we were placed in the position to be able to make these decisions.

any of the above would have wiped us out if they had the chance and they failed too.

Other than England, all those wars could have been avoided.

Yeah, we have great power. But most of the time we make bad decision. I'm a firm believer in isolationism. I wish we as America can attack every injustice caused upon others around the world, but sadly we can't. There's too much.

 

[Coach Grizz]

Yes it is true that slavery and the slave trade between the Arabs and Blacks was going on long inside Africa long before the Eruopeans came along. They were hired out to work, or if they owed a debt or they were hire out as fighting slaves for the egypitians, the cartheginians and other mighty nations.

 

[Thrasher865]

I am Scotch-Irish, and I do not dislike the black folk one bit, nor am I a Ron Paul supporter. What do you say about that, Pooch?

 

[trevols81]

And there's another thing. Grizz mentioned it earlier, and so did sparta, but most of the time you are going to line up with who you are most comfortable with.

I've never had a black person in my home. NEVER. Not because my parents are racist or anything like that, but because I went to an all white private school and an all white church, and my high school life was church and school for various reasons.

So growing up, my views of blacks were basically television and entertainment. Whether this is fair or not, I looked as blacks as basketball players, rappers, some politicians, or poor ghetto kids. That's what is portrayed on television.

Obviously that's not true, and I've grown from those stereotypes, but I do think there is some veil racism in entertainment despite the improvements made.

I watched a movie recently where there were about ten black people. Five was a good guy and his family, and the rest were gangbangers. How many whites were gangbangers? None, despite almost all the movie being white actors, and 3/4 of the good guys being white.

My mother grew up in New Prospect, TN(shout out, baby!). This tiny town is between Lawrenceburg and Pulaski.

She did not even SEE a black person until her family went on a trip to Florence, AL when she was 11 yrs old.

 

[Spartacavolus]

Nope, unless I'm a racist, because I loved the fact we had a young, black-ish, American who was the best player to come along since Jack. It wasn't much over a decade before that, that Wade Houston was initially denied membership to Cherokee Country Club in Knoxville, which (as you might have noticed, I'm a bit of a Tennessee Basketball fan) was one of the defining moments in my young like in regards to understanding racism and why it sucked.

I am probably one of the few, but I can't stand it when Skylar brings the house down when he nails a 3 as opposed to Jordan or Trae, when they do. I love Skylar, don't get me wrong, but I think it makes our fanbase plook simple and weirdly vindictive; like we showed them! Yuck.

Just for an example, but if a white kid in Memphis is playing ball in a majority black gym and can play or shoot, the gym reacts the same way.
I remember having a really good game in a tourney at melrose and everytime I shot, many in the crowd would do something like, "ohhhh, boom". They weren't doing it for anyone else.