Why is Trump destroying NATO ?

Why is Trump destroying NATO?

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#401
#401
vol0725 said:
usa bears 69% of nato costs.
What a joke rip-off
how dare trump call them out!
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The U.S. has the worlds largest GDP, NATOlargest GDP member and the worlds 3rd largest military and spends 3.1-3.6% on defense. The only country that spends more per GDP on defense is Russia at 3.9%.
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#402
#402
NorthDallas40 said:
Actually the smaller states contribute something I think is really important. Geography. I think it’s a mistake to discount geography. Having a rapid jump off point with equipment already in place shouldn’t be discounted. Plus I’d always rather fight a war on somebody else’s turf.
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Discounting the prospect of the kind of war that nobody (except maybe cockroaches) wins, we've still got big oceans dividing us from European style insanity. While I do agree with you, the other alternative is that we really don't have to be involved and need a good jumping off point.

Interestingly enough Poland is courting us to put troops there, and they are willing to chuck a lot of money into the necessary infrastructure. Norway is asking about more US Marines there, too.
 
#403
#403
Grand Vol said:
Bump.

Any takers?
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The important point is that at least some of us here can see the strategic implications of putting too many energy eggs in a potential enemy's basket, but fewer seem to accept that we are doing precisely the same with our manufacturing and China.

It's really simple. If you don't control your destiny, then you don't control your destiny. In WW2 both Germany and Japan built formidable militaries and inflicted significant damage around the world, but neither without capturing and holding foreign countries had the strategic ability to sustain what they started. Strength all starts (and ends) with self sustenance.
 
#404
#404
AM64 said:
The important point is that at least some of us here can see the strategic implications of putting too many energy eggs in a potential enemy's basket, but fewer seem to accept that we are doing precisely the same with our manufacturing and China.

It's really simple. If you don't control your destiny, then you don't control your destiny. In WW2 both Germany and Japan built formidable militaries and inflicted significant damage around the world, but neither without capturing and holding foreign countries had the strategic ability to sustain what they started. Strength all starts (and ends) with self sustenance.
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Far more reasonable answer than Carlos gave.

Do you think it's strategically a mistake for them not only to put their energy "eggs" into that breadbasket, but also to put that hard currency into a nation's coffers that could potentially be a threat?
 
#406
#406
AM64 said:
Discounting the prospect of the kind of war that nobody (except maybe cockroaches) wins, we've still got big oceans dividing us from European style insanity. While I do agree with you, the other alternative is that we really don't have to be involved and need a good jumping off point.

Interestingly enough Poland is courting us to put troops there, and they are willing to chuck a lot of money into the necessary infrastructure. Norway is asking about more US Marines there, too.
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I see the mutual defense agreements as an effective means of preventing our involvement be needed... as long as everybody thinks the agreement has teeth and we don’t draw some silly ass “red line”.

I don’t want to see US troops fighting and dying for non US interests or defense. But I also realize that it’s going to happen to some degree regardless how much we hate it.

And yeah I think Poland and Norway see the benefits of having US troops on their soil for the same reason South Korea does. If we didn’t have s strong presence in South Korea the North and China would already have conquered it.
 
#407
#407
Grand Vol said:
Far more reasonable answer than Carlos gave.

Do you think it's strategically a mistake for them not only to put their energy "eggs" into that breadbasket, but also to put that hard currency into a nation's coffers that could potentially be a threat?
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Absolutely. Oil and gas for trade are like drugs - worthless without the currency traded for them. Just like the wealth and technology we are putting into China's basket is allowing China to build a serious military. Both Russia and China still have the governments in place to direct income to strategic areas rather than to significantly improve the lot of the common person.
 
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#408
#408
NorthDallas40 said:
I see the mutual defense agreements as an effective means of preventing our involvement be needed... as long as everybody thinks the agreement has teeth and we don’t draw some silly ass “red line”.

I don’t want to see US troops fighting and dying for non US interests or defense. But I also realize that it’s going to happen to some degree regardless how much we hate it.

And yeah I think Poland and Norway see the benefits of having US troops on their soil for the same reason South Korea does. If we didn’t have s strong presence in South Korea the North and China would already have conquered it.
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I agree. Peace is often the result of military strength poised and waiting; a big country nipping off a small neighboring country and getting away with it just gives them the taste for bigger and better things.
 
#409
#409
AM64 said:
I agree. Peace is often the result of military strength poised and waiting; a big country nipping off a small neighboring country and getting away with it just gives them the taste for bigger and better things.
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Yep. Ukraine is still screaming “wtf Europe?!”
 
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#410
#410
AM64 said:
Absolutely. Oil and gas for trade are like drugs - worthless without the currency traded for them. Just like the wealth and technology we are putting into China's basket is allowing China to build a serious military. Both Russia and China still have the governments in place to direct income to strategic areas rather than to significantly improve the lot of the common person.
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See folks, this is how to have a reasonable discussion rather than the "but, but, but TRUMP!"

Though I will admit, it's probably more fun to blame him for everything.
 
#411
#411
Grand Vol said:
Bump.

Any takers?
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They would defend the Nazis right now if they were anti Trump. It doesn’t matter to them how they take Trump down or what the actual facts are surrounding his removal from office. Hillary was wronged and the American voters are still too white
 
#413
#413
AM64 said:
The important point is that at least some of us here can see the strategic implications of putting too many energy eggs in a potential enemy's basket, but fewer seem to accept that we are doing precisely the same with our manufacturing and China.

It's really simple. If you don't control your destiny, then you don't control your destiny. In WW2 both Germany and Japan built formidable militaries and inflicted significant damage around the world, but neither without capturing and holding foreign countries had the strategic ability to sustain what they started. Strength all starts (and ends) with self sustenance.
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But the Germans don't have all their eggs one basket. They have them spread out in Europe.

35 percent of gas imports came from Russia, 34 percent from Norway and 29 percent from the Netherlands.
 
#414
#414
T-TownVol said:
Seriously?
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Nowhere in any of these documents did any NATO ally or partner agree to any of Trumps concessions.

Brussels Summit Declaration
NATO - Official text: Brussels Summit Declaration issued by the Heads of State and Government participating in the meeting of the North Atlantic Council in Brussels, 11-12 July 2018, 11-Jul.-2018

Brussels Declaration on Transatlantic Security and Solidarity
NATO - Official text: Brussels Declaration on Transatlantic Security and Solidarity, 11-Jul.-2018

NATO-Georgia Commission Declaration at the Brussels Summit
NATO - Official text: Chairman’s statement on NATO-Ukraine following the meeting of the North Atlantic Council with Georgia and Ukraine at the Brussels Summit, 12-Jul.-2018


Chairman’s statement on NATO-Ukraine following the meeting of the North Atlantic Council with Georgia and Ukraine at the Brussels Summit
NATO - Official text: NATO-Georgia Commission Declaration at the Brussels Summit, 12-Jul.-2018

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#415
#415
carlos86 said:
But the Germans don't have all their eggs one basket. They have them spread out in Europe.

35 percent of gas imports came from Russia, 34 percent from Norway and 29 percent from the Netherlands.
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Currently; don't you think a dedicated pipeline will change that and have repercussions on the other suppliers? It's probably difficult ramping back up in a hurry "because Germany backed the wrong horse".

As GV pointed out, is it better to send your currency to a NATO ally or to a potential enemy who could use it for arms aimed at you and NATO allies?
 
#416
#416
AM64 said:
Currently; don't you think a dedicated pipeline will change that and have repercussions on the other suppliers? It's probably difficult ramping back up in a hurry "because Germany backed the wrong horse".

As GV pointed out, is it better to send your currency to a NATO ally or to a potential enemy who could use it for arms aimed at you and NATO allies?
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It wouldn't take much for the Russian Navy to sink every gas tanker coming from the U.S. crossing the Atlantic with its sub force in the event of a war with NATO. Either way, you are taking a chance and the pipelines are less risky.
 
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#417
#417
carlos86 said:
It wouldn't take much for the Russian Navy to sink every gas tanker coming from the U.S. crossing the Atlantic with its sub force in the event of a war with NATO. Either way, you are taking a chance and the pipelines are less risky.
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It would take less effort to walk over to the pipeline and shut off the flow in the event of the same war.

In fact. They already did this once during the invasion of Crimea.
 
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#418
#418
carlos86 said:
It wouldn't take much for the Russian Navy to sink every gas tanker coming from the U.S. crossing the Atlantic with its sub force in the event of a war with NATO. Either way, you are taking a chance and the pipelines are less risky.
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See, that's where you lose the argument.

Russia doesn't have to sink tankers or anything else. Just cut off the supplies after Norway and the UK gas production gets shut down since there is less demand (like we do with our wells) and let the Germans sweat it out.

Do it in the winter and it gets worse because the good ole US will come to their aid and we likely will have to help pay for it.

All the while Russia has modernized their military using Euros and chuckle at the situation as it stands.

It's ****ing chess, not Go Fish.
 
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#419
#419
Grand Vol said:
See, that's where you lose the argument.

Russia doesn't have to sink tankers or anything else. Just cut off the supplies after Norway and the UK gas production gets shut down since there is less demand (like we do with our wells) and let the Germans sweat it out.

Do it in the winter and it gets worse because the good ole US will come to their aid and we likely will have to help pay for it.

All the while Russia has modernized their military using Euros and chuckle at the situation as it stands.

It's ****ing chess, not Go Fish.
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I can't remember who said it but I still get a kick out of whoever it was that called Russia "a gas station with an army."
 
#421
#421
carlos86 said:
Nowhere in any of these documents did any NATO ally or partner agree to any of Trumps concessions.

Brussels Summit Declaration
NATO - Official text: Brussels Summit Declaration issued by the Heads of State and Government participating in the meeting of the North Atlantic Council in Brussels, 11-12 July 2018, 11-Jul.-2018

Brussels Declaration on Transatlantic Security and Solidarity
NATO - Official text: Brussels Declaration on Transatlantic Security and Solidarity, 11-Jul.-2018

NATO-Georgia Commission Declaration at the Brussels Summit
NATO - Official text: Chairman’s statement on NATO-Ukraine following the meeting of the North Atlantic Council with Georgia and Ukraine at the Brussels Summit, 12-Jul.-2018


Chairman’s statement on NATO-Ukraine following the meeting of the North Atlantic Council with Georgia and Ukraine at the Brussels Summit
NATO - Official text: NATO-Georgia Commission Declaration at the Brussels Summit, 12-Jul.-2018

[twitter]1017367754096115713[/twitter]
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The French????
They run from everything......
 
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#423
#423
NATO is obsolete now. It once had a purpose...

Russia is not the USSR anymore...not even close!
 
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