Why slow it down????

[Spartacavolus]

We got out rebounded by 15, gave up 48% shooting, including 56% in the second half, and shot 7-19 from the free throw line?

because we let them play a halfcourt game on both ends and when you let defenses set you aren't going to get any offensive boards.
Ft line sucked as did Xaviers

 

[VolGee4]

The issue when we push it has always been that it hurts our defense. We don't win when we push the pace, the stats say as much.

Now I don't know what would've happened had we ran more from the tip against Xavier, but I know what history shows and it says we would've given up a whole lot more points than we did.

This is kind of what is happening with the Grizzlies right now. New coach who is trying to implement a faster offense, but it seems to be effecting their defense, which they are known for. No grit and grind= losing.

I agree with Sparty that the offense needs some help. McRae needs the ball more. But, I also agree that we don't have to push the pace to win. If we are going to play a slower pace, I also think we need to learn a zone. JMO.

 

[zjcvols]

What's hilarious that you pick a stat like that yet can't look at the game for what it was. If you don't know by now this team and it's players plays better with a quicker paced game and with space vs slow it down offense you need to stop the blogging bs.
Let me ask you this, do those bs stats take into consideration how many games you didn't win by pushing the pace when it was to your advantage? Hell no. Does it tell you we could've won 6-7 more games last year with the faster paced 4-1 lineup change earlier rather than 1/3rd thru the season? Of course not. Is the competition considered? Injuries? Foul trouble?
Those are reasons why some coaches look at stats, but not many statisticians are coaches. Good coaches go by what they see on the floor and their gut, rather than random stats that can be easily skewed in either direction.

Then explain the 59% shooting with the relatively same pace in the second half. What about the 6-7 games we could have lost with a slower pace last year? What about the 6-7 games we could have won with a slower pace? But hey, you think we should run with two 260 lb posts that can score, so what do I know?

 

[Spartacavolus]

The issue when we push it has always been that it hurts our defense. We don't win when we push the pace, the stats say as much.

Now I don't know what would've happened had we ran more from the tip against Xavier, but I know what history shows and it says we would've given up a whole lot more points than we did.

bto, we don't win much at all with two NIT one and dones. This isn't last years team or the year before either. It's his fastest, most talented, and deepest. That's when you use it because it doesn't come around that often for most coaches. Do you have any stats on this years team possessions per game, points per game, etc. What are we this year? Thru 3 games. So what if 2 were exhibition and 1 was Xavier as you guys don't take any of that stuff into consideration. Different players all over the place. Play to your talents or gtfo.
Defense sucked the other night in a slow paced game. Push the pace and drop to a zone. What's our record when we do that? Fact is you guys are arguing about when CM's teams are winning more or losing more and the peak has been the NIT so it seems changes would be in order regardless. His teams haven't pushed the pace in enough games for it to even be apples to apples, much less not even this particular team.

 

[Spartacavolus]

Then explain the 59% shooting with the relatively same pace in the second half. What about the 6-7 games we could have lost with a slower pace last year? What about the 6-7 games we could have won with a slower pace? But hey, you think we should run with two 260 lb posts that can score, so what do I know?

Yes, I thinks it's obvious you don't slow the pace and put your 2 undersized post players down on the block against their big guy. You push and get the ball to them in space so they can beat him off the dribble. Or you get the ball out of the net and push it up court because Stokes can run that guy to death and get easy bucket after easy bucket early in the shot clock before the defense is set and where he has room to work.

 

[volbeast33]

Then explain the 59% shooting with the relatively same pace in the second half. What about the 6-7 games we could have lost with a slower pace last year? What about the 6-7 games we could have won with a slower pace? But hey, you think we should run with two 260 lb posts that can score, so what do I know?

What I feel that hurts us is that we play positioning defense but aren't even close to a shutdown defense.....playing that style we don't create easy baskets for us on the other end.

 

[VolGee4]

Not that it really mattered, but the one thing that pissed me off against Xavier is that they would touch/hit the ball after every made basket in the first half. I am telling you that if you watch a replay, Xavier did that. Once or twice is ok, but the refs have to stop that if it is happening over and over again. The NBA is strict with that.

 

[zjcvols]

Yes, I thinks it's obvious you don't slow the pace and put your 2 undersized post players down on the block against their big guy. You push and get the ball to them in space so they can beat him off the dribble. Or you get the ball out of the net and push it up court because Stokes can run that guy to death and get easy bucket after easy bucket early in the shot clock before the defense is set and where he has room to work.

Sparty, you allege when we went to the four guard lineup, we started to "push the pace" more, which led to our winning ways second half of conference play. I decided to look at the final sixteen games of the year when we went on a very nice 11-6 run. The first seventeen games we were 10-7. I decided to compare that to our possessions before that.

First 17: Average of 64 possessions per game

Next 16 (excluding TAMU) games: Average of 62 possessions per game

I looked at our final 12 games on our 9-3 run. Taking out TAMU.

Average of possessions on 9-3 run in final 12 games: 63

Average of possesssions of our first 21 games when we were 12-10: 64

Finally, I decided to look at strictly SEC games for possessions. Again, we take out TAMU.

Average of possessions in losses: 66.2

Average of possessions in wins: 61

Admit it Sparty. You are wrong.

 

[zjcvols]

What I feel that hurts us is that we play positioning defense but aren't even close to a shutdown defense.....playing that style we don't create easy baskets for us on the other end.

This is true. Under Martin, we have been an inconsistent defense. However, that does not correlate with possessions per game. It's just been shoddy defense.

 

[zjcvols]

Not that it really mattered, but the one thing that pissed me off against Xavier is that they would touch/hit the ball after every made basket in the first half. I am telling you that if you watch a replay, Xavier did that. Once or twice is ok, but the refs have to stop that if it is happening over and over again. The NBA is strict with that.

I'm curious about this, because I know there were a couple times I *****ed about that as well.

 

[Spartacavolus]

If I felt like wasting time, I'd have my statboy go skew the stats any direction I wanted. The offense opened up when we went 4 guard and got out of the stand around halfcourt sets. I don't remember when it was or what game it was when we made the switch. Which game was it?
Regarding your stats, you could be down 20 points and have 10 possessions in the last 2 minutes depending on fouls, etc, Or you can have a lead down the stretch and have and the team doesn't want to foul and you could have 3-4 possessions in the last 2 minutes. That's a 6-7 possession swing based off a blowout game. You could have a 10-12 possession swing just in the last 2 minutes of each half, but let's just generalize that into pushing the pace or not pushing the pace. Ridiculous that I am even having to explain really.
If you want to keep throwing stats out about last years team, I'll keep asking questions that basically render your stats a moot point when you don't take in all factors of the entire game, including competition, lineup and about a dozen more that I've listed. I can do this all night.
I've been wrong plenty but saying this team is better off in the long run grinding it out rather than attacking early after pushing the pace is where you are wrong, not me. Your stats about last years team are moot points on too many levels to even be considered as support of a debate.

 

[Spartacavolus]

and where are steals figured in? If you walk it up and make a wing pass that's stolen for a layup then get the ball back, that's 2 possessions in 10 seconds. Does that mean we are running and gunning?
Too many holes guys. Just use your eyes.

 

[Spartacavolus]

gotta take the boys to practice fellas. Ain't mad at anybody. Not wrong either though.

 

[knowthevols]

and where are steals figured in? If you walk it up and make a wing pass that's stolen for a layup then get the ball back, that's 2 possessions in 10 seconds. Does that mean we are running and gunning?
Too many holes guys. Just use your eyes.

Excellent points.

 

[zjcvols]

If I felt like wasting time, I'd have my statboy go skew the stats any direction I wanted. The offense opened up when we went 4 guard and got out of the stand around halfcourt sets. I don't remember when it was or what game it was when we made the switch. Which game was it?
Regarding your stats, you could be down 20 points and have 10 possessions in the last 2 minutes depending on fouls, etc, Or you can have a lead down the stretch and have and the team doesn't want to foul and you could have 3-4 possessions in the last 2 minutes. That's a 6-7 possession swing based off a blowout game. You could have a 10-12 possession swing just in the last 2 minutes of each half, but let's just generalize that into pushing the pace or not pushing the pace. Ridiculous that I am even having to explain really.
If you want to keep throwing stats out about last years team, I'll keep asking questions that basically render your stats a moot point when you don't take in all factors of the entire game, including competition, lineup and about a dozen more that I've listed. I can do this all night.
I've been wrong plenty but saying this team is better off in the long run grinding it out rather than attacking early after pushing the pace is where you are wrong, not me. Your stats about last years team are moot points on too many levels to even be considered as support of a debate.

You can continue to ignore facts and believe you are right, or you can find facts that support your opinion. You continue to state opinions you can't back up. All you keep telling me is what you believe. All I'm asking for is some empirical evidence to support your claims. And possessions even themselves out. I can go all night how possessions actually work and is legitimate. You will continue to ignore them because that's not what you want to hear.

 

[zjcvols]

Oh, and the four guard lineup opened things up spacing wise and gave us more athleticism on defense which allowed us to switch more. That's why it worked.

 

[zjcvols]

Our offensive rebounding percentage during our 9-3 run was up 6.5%. Our steal percentage went up 2%, and our turnover percentage went down 1.2%, while opponents turnover percentage went up .8%. So Sparty, if our offensive rebounding percentage was up, our steal percentage went up, we forced more turnovers, and had less turnovers.........

How come are number of possessions was still basically the same? Those four things right there would have created more possessions along with you saying we pushed the pace..........right?

 

[volbeast33]

This is true. Under Martin, we have been an inconsistent defense. However, that does not correlate with possessions per game. It's just been shoddy defense.

Sorry was not trying to join the argument about possessions per game, was just stating I think I getting a few easy baskets per game would help a lot......look at the MSU-kent game.

 

[Spartacavolus]

You can continue to ignore facts and believe you are right, or you can find facts that support your opinion. You continue to state opinions you can't back up. All you keep telling me is what you believe. All I'm asking for is some empirical evidence to support your claims. And possessions even themselves out. I can go all night how possessions actually work and is legitimate. You will continue to ignore them because that's not what you want to hear.

Like I said, I dont have empirical evidence for this specific team outside of my opinion based on the individual skills and maximizing them, and the 5 points in 40 seconds in the first half in two possessions when we pushed it hard and had very few points the first 12 minutes with zero pace.
I'll let you guys stick with the empirical evidence that looks like swiss cheese after a couple of basic questions are asked like your poss/gm argument. You guys spent page after page debating something that may give absolutley zero indication as to the overall pace of a game or times when tn pushes the ball. And offensive rebounds count as one possession. If your team gives up offensive rebounds and the other team backs it out, your possession number will drop and it has nothing to do with pace.

 

[zjcvols]

Sorry was not trying to join the argument about possessions per game, was just stating I think I getting a few easy baskets per game would help a lot......look at the MSU-kent game.

I'm not saying we should go Wisconsin ball. I am a firm believer in running when running is right. There have been multiple games where Cuonzo has pushed the pace and the Vols won (LSU in 2012, Arkansas in 2011). There are also specific examples of where the Vols won because they slowed the game down (Florida in 2012, UConn 2012). It goes both way.

I even agree with Sparty in the sense that your opponent is important to decide which tempo we should play. I don't think Xavier was a specific game we should have pushed the pace. He says we should have played fast, but how come we had the same exact pace in the second half and shot 59%, while shooting less?

However, we have a 6'7/260 post and a 6'8/260 post that aren't very athletic. Becoming a fast paced team is not the answer. It should run through them in a balanced set. Run when you have numbers or create turnovers. Don't JOG THE OFFENSE, RUN THE OFFENSE. Sparty is right. We don't cut. However, we set horrible screens Tuesday. If we would cut and set proper screens, our offense would be fine. We lost because:

A) We gave up 14 offensive rebounds
B) They shot 48% from the field, 56% in the second half
C) We shot free throws poorly
D) Jarnell and Maymon went 5-14 from the floor

It's that simple. Our offense wasn't crisp, but we played great offense in the second half. It was our defense that let us down.

If they only have 8 offensive rebounds, are held t 50% shooting, Vols go 14-19 from the line, and Maymon/Stokes goes 8-14, we win by 15 and nobody complains about the pace of the game.

We started off cold. What if we push the pace, miss more shots, become lazy getting back on defense, and have more turnovers? We would have lost by 25. See, it works both ways. Narratives are fun when they fit what we believe. "We scored 20 points in the first half! Our offense sputtered! We must push the pace!" Who cares we shot 59% from the floor with less shots in the second half? It doesn't matter what pace we play if we give up 48% shooting from the floor and 56% in the second half, Tennessee will lose.

 

[Spartacavolus]

Our offensive rebounding percentage during our 9-3 run was up 6.5%. Our steal percentage went up 2%, and our turnover percentage went down 1.2%, while opponents turnover percentage went up .8%. So Sparty, if our offensive rebounding percentage was up, our steal percentage went up, we forced more turnovers, and had less turnovers.........

How come are number of possessions was still basically the same? Those four things right there would have created more possessions along with you saying we pushed the pace..........right?

Offensive rebounding is your biggest number and an offensive rebound isnt counted as a new possession. If you backed it out it could actually decrease the number of possessions in the game. The stats are moot. Stop making me do this please.
My guess is that we did get more offensive boards because when a team is pushing pace they aren't set and ready in a half court d with rebounding position.

 

[zjcvols]

Like I said, I dont have empirical evidence for this specific team outside of my opinion based on the individual skills and maximizing them, and the 5 points in 40 seconds in the first half in two possessions when we pushed it hard and had very few points the first 12 minutes with zero pace.
I'll let you guys stick with the empirical evidence that looks like swiss cheese after a couple of basic questions are asked like your poss/gm argument. You guys spent page after page debating something that may give absolutley zero indication as to the overall pace of a game or times when tn pushes the ball. And offensive rebounds count as one possession. If your team gives up offensive rebounds and the other team backs it out, your possession number will drop and it has nothing to do with pace.

Well, I have my opinion we should play a balanced style and go to our posts, AND also have empirical evidence to back up my claims.

Oh, and I've criticized Martin's substitution patterns, the horrible offensive start (which by the way, fixed itself), and everything else you've said. But pace hasn't been, nor will be the problem if we give up 48% shooting on defense.

 

[zjcvols]

Offensive rebounding is your biggest number and an offensive rebound isnt counted as a new possession. If you backed it out it could actually decrease the number of possessions in the game. The stats are moot. Stop making me do this please.
My guess is that we did get more offensive boards because when a team is pushing pace they aren't set and ready in a half court d with rebounding position.

Yet, as I said, our turnover percentage went down, our steal percentage went up, and our defensive rebounding percentage went up. I was using offensive rebounding percentage to show that it went up, thus decreasing possessions anyways. I did not clarify. (Disclaimer: I think counting offensive rebounds as one possession is stupid and would get rid of that).

And that's your guess, yet my guess is that Jarnell, the fifth best offensive rebounder in the country last year, is our slowest player and almost always the last one back. Couldn't I say because we slowed it down, we got more opportunities for him to use his biggest strength as a player because we down on the low block, especially since his offensive rebounding went up in the last twelve games.

 

[Spartacavolus]

Well, I have my opinion we should play a balanced style and go to our posts, AND also have empirical evidence to back up my claims.

Oh, and I've criticized Martin's substitution patterns, the horrible offensive start (which by the way, fixed itself), and everything else you've said. But pace hasn't been, nor will be the problem if we give up 48% shooting on defense.

Your opinion is fine. Your evidence is squat. We'll see where we are at the end of the year and how we get there.
And also, going to the post in your words has nothing to do with pace. Its when and where you get it to him. With us, stokes likes to get down and pin his man before his man and the d can get set. A big part of pushing the pace is to get it to him early in the shot clock when he has his best position and no immediate defensive help coming. Seems you may be confusing pushing pace with Nolan Richardson.

 

[jjay2518]

Your opinion is fine. Your evidence is squat. We'll see where we are at the end of the year and how we get there.
And also, going to the post in your words has nothing to do with pace. Its when and where you get it to him. With us, stokes likes to get down and pin his man before his man and the d can get set. A big part of pushing the pace is to get it to him early in the shot clock when he has his best position and no immediate defensive help coming. Seems you may be confusing pushing pace with Nolan Richardson.

So it seems like the entire premise of your argument can be summed up with "because I say so"